He’s not the type where his legs are trailing along behind him, but he also won’t work hard unless you insist. So I can see how the contact problem could be a hind end problem. I spent a long time on groundwork with the express purpose of getting him to be less reactive, meaning there was a time when a slow, shuffling trot felt like a victory. And It did help with his nervousness around being asked to do anything, in that his reactivity became a “sometimes” thing and not an “always” thing, and is now more directed at the environment and not the rider. But I feel like I’m now having to undo that habit that he feels giving 50% is “enough” and then only surprising me with the remaining 50% when he decides it’s T minus zero to launch time.
That makes sense. It’s a real struggle to keep relaxation when asking for more challenging work from a sensitive horse. I have one that completely braces his back and runs around hollow in a panic when he decides something is too hard for him, and it has taken years for that to go from a “ruins the whole ride” issue to a “can be reasoned with after a walk break” issue, so don’t give up hope! It sounds like you are doing right by the horse. I do think that working on gait adjustability, at first just repetitions of a few longer strides and then half halt and a few shorter strides if it’s new, would help because he can’t get a longer stride without some suppling/relaxation of his back so it can help unlearn bracing and scrambling when you put the leg on. Maybe try cavaletti on the longe with a few poles set slightly shorter than a normal stride on one side of the circle and a few slightly longer than a normal stride on the other side of the circle, and see if that gets him to visibly stretch and release his neck/reach under himself more with the back legs? I think the other best time to get a stretch out to the bit with a green horse is trot to walk downward transitions. Trot, 6 steps of walk, back to trot, and open your fingers as they come down to walk if they are holding a soft contact with you is a favorite of mine for both improving contact and getting prompt responses to the aids. But they have to be straight first.
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I’m going to say all of this and the probably live to regret it after my horse had had two days off due to severe storms.
Monday in my lesson, everybody was losing it and my guy didn’t even blink at the thunder. And it was my canter work lesson so I was expecting one very spicy ginger pony. But he couldn’t have cared less—much to my great surprise.
Anyway, the thing that has really been working lately is changing up the way I hold my reins. My trainer had me try holding them like I was wearing mittens (or you’re in a double and choose to carry the curb rein under your pinkie and up through your hand). I can’t believe how much quieter it made my fingers and my guy has settled so very much into the contact because I’m not constantly fidgeting with my ring fingers on the corners of his mouth. I’ve always been told I had quiet hands anyway but trying this has really taken things to the next level and we’ve never had such quiet & through upward canter transitions.
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Thanks for stating this much better than I could. I wanted to ask @eightpondfarm what shoes she’s watching and where she sees that, because it’s not nearly as common as some “modern dressage is abuse” people would have you believe. Does it happen sometimes? Of course, I’ve seen it more often in the warm up ring where overflexion is used for brief periods to achieve a certain response. There are one or two riders who tend to maintain hyperflexion for extended periods but they are the exception , not the norm. And at the lower levels it almost never happens. In most of the low level classes I’ve scribed and / or watched not enough contact / floppy reins are way more common than super short reins and pulling hands.
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sure looks unpleasant for the horse to me…and yeah, upper levels and lower levels and mid-level. Was there for most of the Regionals at NEC and two rated shows at Xanadu (small local stable in MO). There was this one large colorful (can’t be more specific on here, sorry)… I had to leave…could not stomach watching that one.
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This comment is controversial but…some horses are just more comfortable carrying themselves in an over-bent fashion. I find uphill horses more prone to it, and obviously younger horses or horses who are not as strong horses as some with more training.
Now of course you should always be striving for the correct outline for what it is you are doing, but I don’t find a horse being BTV or behind the bit who does it themselves the worst thing ever. And just because a horse is overbent doesn’t mean the rider is cranking its head in. It could be holding itself there.
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I actually understand this and don’t disagree with what you’re saying here.
This doesn’t mean I approve of riding btv nor am I saying it’s correct, but I get what you’re saying.
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Very cool! I never thought about this. I bet you work off calories too.
Have you ever been to see a doctor, explained your symptoms, then waited to hear what she thinks is happening to you, for her to set out some options, and the medic just says “What would like me to do?” Last time that happened I said “You are the expert. You tell me!”.
So your horse is carrying you around willingly, listening hard to find out what you want it to do next - and if you just sit with long reins flopping you can not have that conversation. “What would you like me to do?”. We riders think of what action we want, tell the horse, the horse then does it for us. As the horse and rider move up through higher levels that conversation gets quieter and quieter. The reins are shorter because the horse is carrying itself, it is in balance, it’s head is higher and neck shorter to control that push of energy coming from behind. The rider’s seat, body, legs, back, head, shoulders, elbows, hands are moving in relation to the horse but are comparatively still. At its most refined and learned, it is really only the fingers that move. So to the casual viewer, that horse is being pulled into position.
Way back at the top of this thread I suggested riding a dressage test as a way to improve contact. That is because the conversation then has a context: “get ready, after this next corner we are going to make a upwards transition but not too fast because at E we are going to go onto a 20 m circle”. That is a different conversation from “contact, why can’t I get a contact, oh good stride, contact, how do I get a contact, maybe I’ll drop my hands, oh crap, how do I get a contact”.
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Some breeds / confirmations seem to naturally carry themselves that way, I agree. Almost all the PREs, Lusos and many of the Friesian crosses I’ve boarded with preferred to tuck their nose to their chest and their riders have to work hard to encourage carriage with an open throat latch and nose at or ahead of the vertical. I’m sure many of the keyboard warriors would look at a moment in time snapshot of one of these horses and scream “rollkur!” but that’s not at all what’s happening.
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Even my level necked mare gets BTV often (more often than I like) because she would rather carry her poll lower. I obviously don’t change the rein length, and instead half halt to raise the poll. I try to catch it right on time but I’m no pro and there are strides where her poll is not the highest point, and with that rein length and her bearing down on me, she absolutely goes BTV for a stride or two before I say “nope, carry yourself and get up here” with a half halt.
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Interesting about those breeds because they all would typically be more uphill built. It’s something I have been anecdotally observing a bit. I know my mare who is very uphill very much would prefer to carry herself in a more overbent fashion, while my downhill mares are more likely to be above the vertical. Just kind of interesting!
This is how I ride when I am hacking out in the field and my sensitive TB mare is feeling herself. Combine that with wide open space to run and you better watch what you’re saying to her. I will sometimes bridge my reins too. Seems to just give her less to react to, and keeps me from getting stiff elbows and locking on to her mouth.
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You are not doing your horse a kindness by riding with loose flopping reins. Thus bumping his mouth with the bit all the time. Horses do not like this. Signed - somebody who used to do this, especially with a flopping outside rein. A soft elastic connection makes a horse much happier, believe me.
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{Quote}-Jackie Cochran “My hands belong to the horse’s mouth. If the horse has problems with the bit it is MY FAULT.” {Quote}
So very, very true…!!!
I have a student whose horse flaps his tongue at times, I always know who to blame. 
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What does op do for the hind end. Contact comes from behind right?
If you have been reading, you should have figured out that while forward energy comes from behind, a good contact is based on a combination of shoulders, elbows, forearms, wrists and fingers and the interplay between them to produce a following gentle contact with the bit in the horse’s mouth.
So you can “kick on” forever without establishing contact.
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If you can find a copy of the book “Build a Better Athlete”, many if not all of the exercises in that book will correct the problems you are having.
The answer is not in gadgets, side reins etc. You need forward, flexion and tons and tons of half halts. The fact that you mention wiggling the reins suggests your understanding of contact involves the front end of the horse. Contact is merely a result of the horse engaging his hind end which sends the energy forward to steady inviting contact.
How do you engage the hind end? Forward, transition, forward, half halt, forward, transition between gaits, forward, half halt within gait. You get the idea. If you just let him plod around at one gait/tempo for 10 strides or more, you’ve wasted quite a few opportunities to check in and rebalance him.
How do you find contact? Very elusive to find particularly without a forward and engaged horse, but I have a few suggestions. I’m sure you are already aware of the elbow to bit straight line concept. Get some bungee cords that are the same length of rein you would have to create that connection and attach the bungees to the bit. Ride using them along with your reins. If your contact becomes too loose, they fall off. Too tight and your horse ends up BTV. The bungee cords will give you the elastic feel you want to find with the reins once your horse is properly reaching forward into the contact.
If the bungees don’t work for you, start your ride on a longer rein only as short as you can feel your horse’s mouth. It doesn’t matter if he has a giraffe head or down in the dirt. Take only what he gives you. As you progress in your ride, start riding those transitions and half halts. Every time you do a transition, you the result will be a little more hind end engagement making the horse’s overall frame a little shorter. The end effect will be the reins feel looser. Take up that slack each time but again no more than the horse gives you. Never never not ever pull back. Think forward relaxed elbows, inviting contact. You want to horse to be happily seeking your hands.
The final piece of this puzzle is the flexion. None of that stuff above can accomplish squat if your hose in kinked. You need a straight horse and straight is different for horse. You need flexion at the poll. Not the body. None of this slinky neck nose touching his belly crap. With just a 1/4 turn of your inside rein, you should be able to see just your horse’s inside eyelashes. The rest of the neck stay pin straight. Once you have that little bit of flexion, all that power from behind can come through to your reins.
Hope some of this helps.
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Bungee cords attached to the bit? That sounds more like draw reins yet you eschew side reins that the rider is not touching. In what way is that not a “gadget?”
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Contact/Connection is not about the reins aids alone. The horse needs to be on ALL OF YOUR AIDS to be on the bit and through. Work on putting your horse on the seat and legs more. I do a lot of work with my young horse with loops in the reins in walk, riding figures from my seat and legs and doing transitions from my seat and legs. When I pick up the reins and he hollows or he dives, I can use his obedience to my seat and legs to start to connect him and I use circles, transitions, leg yields. Leg yields are my favorit suppling exercise to establish the inside leg to outside hand connection. How the reins feel or where the horse’s head is is just feedback to where the horse is mentally and through it’s whole body and the process of connecting him to your body requires ALL the aids, i.e. your whole body.
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