To break the wrists or not break the wrists, that is the question

[Rackonteur]

I read the title of this thread and my first thought was, “I wasn’t expecting the Spanish Inquisition!”

[SillyHorse]

@Rackonteur

I read the title of this thread and my first thought was, “I wasn’t expecting the Spanish Inquisition!”

:lol:

[KBC]

@Rackonteur

I read the title of this thread and my first thought was, “I wasn’t expecting the Spanish Inquisition!”

Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition.

[alicen]

Keep in mind that when you turn the wrist inward, you are also shortening the rein, hence giving mixed signals to the horse.

[SillyHorse]

@alicen

Keep in mind that when you turn the wrist inward, you are also shortening the rein, hence giving mixed signals to the horse.

I’m not sure I know what you mean by mixed signals. My horse understands perfectly well what I’m asking him to do when I ask for flexion using my wrist. I suppose you could say that any movement of your hand or arm is shortening or lengthening the rein.

[KBC]

@alicen

Keep in mind that when you turn the wrist inward, you are also shortening the rein, hence giving mixed signals to the horse.

I’m confused as well, yes you are shortening, same as taking the hand back, asking for the flex.

[alicen]

If the contact is correct and the reins are the right length, the flex can be achieved with the fingers - minimal taking the rein back. Sorry, I have to go to work.

[mvp]

@merrygoround

If breaking the wrist involves a soft slight inward curve, and soft fingers, with a locked thumb and forefinger, holding the rein, I’m all for it. If locking it straight, ot bending it backward-no go. Relaxed forearms and elbow that give are also a major component in developing a light following contact.

Controlled relaxation are the name of the game in riding. :lol:

That’s the big deal-- keeping the forearm soft. OP, I think if you pull a bit via flexing your wrist in-- so, thumbs on top and curving your knuckles in both hands back toward you-- notice what happens to your elbow. I’ll bet you stabilized your elbow in order to do that. The reason I wouldn’t emphasize a riding system that had you use just your fingers and wrists for small signals is that it might inadvertently to stiffen your upper arm. Also, I think that isometric stiffness is hard to feel.

[SillyHorse]

@mvp

That’s the big deal-- keeping the forearm soft. OP, I think if you pull a bit via flexing your wrist in-- so, thumbs on top and curving your knuckles in both hands back toward you–notice what happens to your elbow. I’ll bet you stabilized your elbow in order to do that.

Never both hands at the same time. You would never ask for flexion on both sides at the same time. (Well, I wouldn’t.)

And at least with me, you’d lose that bet.

[merrygoround]

@outerbanks77

Would this be like “turning a key” as Jane Savoie describes? I use that, but don’t break at the wrist, so that the palm would be coming backwards to the arm, ever. And what @merrygoround describes is how my instructor has had me tweak my rein hold. Before I let my wrists be very straight, but the slight outward curve at the wrist helps with rein control and I think makes the contact line from the elbow more true. I wouldn’t use breaking the wrist for a HH because it would break the connection, and likely the seat isn’t involved in the HH at that point. If a strong HH involving more than a squeeze on the rein is needed, the seat will be engaged as well if the rein HH is coming from the elbow instead of the wrist, and also makes it more of a barrier, not a backward aid.

Sorry “Outerbanks”, but HH should first come from the seat. always involve the legs, even though it’s for a fraction of a second. the hand should be secondary.

[Janet]

@KBC

… if I flex with the fingers, when I release I release the grip…hence why my reins get longer. If I flex with the wrist it’s a lot easier to keep a positive hold when I release.

Then you are “gripping” your reins all wrong.
The grip should between your thumb and the top of your first. It should not involve your fingers at all. You should be able to open your fingers completely without losing your grip.

[Mondo]

Late to the thread. My initial reaction to the title was, “That is most certainly NOT the question because the answer is Not To Break. Always.” But then I read the comments and realized that “break” is probably not exactly what you meant. It brings to mind locked wrists with the knuckles pointing outward, which is the opposite of what you are talking about.

I have found that the degree of straightness in the wrists is somewhat dependent on the conformation of the rider. A rider with shorter arms has enough trouble riding the horse into a soft contact without turning the hands inward slightly. The Carl Hester “carrying a two-handled mug” concept is ideal IMHO. (I actually think he stole the sippy-cup idea from me!) Carry on!

[SuzieQNutter]

@KBC

I’m confused as well, yes you are shortening, same as taking the hand back, asking for the flex.

Hands should not move backwards in dressage.

You do not take a hand back to ask for flexion.

If you think of a horse in side reins (not pulled in). They bend and flex and the side reins don’t change. You should see the inside side rein go loose. It is not tightened.

To add to this a horse learns by release of pressure. If you move the inside rein backwards to ask for flexion and hold the horse their for flexion, when you finally release the rein, the horse gets the release of pressure and actually learns to look out.

Instead the saying is that the inside rein ask for flexion, the outside rein controls it. So you ask the horse to look in and when he looks in you must release the rein then and he then gets the release of pressure and learns to look in.

So to sum up, you should be able to do a circle on a dressage horse with correct bend and flexion and hopefully no inside rein.

This is why a rider proves a rein. To prove they are not holding the horse in with the inside rein.

[KBC]

@SuzieQNutter i do understand give and release, and with my very very greenie, it takes many little reminders to flex, just a little to the inside.

sigh have been taught two ways of doing that, big hold and big release, or many many small asks, and releases.

Fortunately for the boy, outside of lessons our mission is simply forward off the leg, and straight, nothing more.

[Bogey2]

So I tried the wrist flexion and I can’t do it without compromising my position. When I have contact I get the inside flexion (other than the leg and outside rein) I bring my elbow back a little. I ride with two FEI trainers and will have to ask them about this because neither on ever suggested I flex my wrist.

[sascha]

@SuzieQNutter

Hands should not move backwards in dressage.

You do not take a hand back to ask for flexion.

If you think of a horse in side reins (not pulled in). They bend and flex and the side reins don’t change. You should see the inside side rein go loose. It is not tightened.

To add to this a horse learns by release of pressure. If you move the inside rein backwards to ask for flexion and hold the horse their for flexion, when you finally release the rein, the horse gets the release of pressure and actually learns to look out.

Instead the saying is that the inside rein ask for flexion, the outside rein controls it. So you ask the horse to look in and when he looks in you must release the rein then and he then gets the release of pressure and learns to look in.

So to sum up, you should be able to do a circle on a dressage horse with correct bend and flexion and hopefully no inside rein.

This is why a rider proves a rein. To prove they are not holding the horse in with the inside rein.

Getting to the point of proving a rein or both reins together takes a lot of give and take and reinforcement.

Side reins are not hands. Hands do not have a longe line to control the snout of the horse so equating the lateral flexion achieved with side reins and longe line to that of the rider is nonsensical.

Releasing a rein will not cause a horse to whip its head in the opposite direction if the give and take makes sense to the horse. In fact, if it does, then the rider has probably been annoying the crap out of the horse by hanging on that rein instead of using judicious giving and taking and the horse needs to get the heck away from the hanging, inert, dead, uncommunicative hand asap.

While the outside rein controls the amount of flexion, it is absolutely essential to be able to initiate flexion with the inside hand or all we are doing is neck reining and I assume we all are talking about (classical) dressage here, yes?

The inside rein is no more evil than the outside rein when used properly. Some will say that you can block the inside hind with the inside hand so it’s the devil. Well, you can block the entire hind end with either hand, so … it’s the correct use and the meaningful and clear way in which the hand is used that is important.

[outerbanks77]

@merrygoround

Sorry “Outerbanks”, but HH should first come from the seat. always involve the legs, even though it’s for a fraction of a second. the hand should be secondary.

Not sure why you seem to be taking such a condescending tone, but go ahead and try to HH off the seat while also applying a rein HH with a broken wrist, and let me know how effective it is. Even if the rein aid comes second, it will work less effectively as a unit with the seat HH if done through a faulty connection.

[Jeannette_formerly_ponygyrl]

I’ll have to watch myself the next couple days to report back in wrists, fingers, elbows, and seat, but I’m smiling because Janet and I have ridden with some of the same people, and yes, the thumb bent like a house roof or a tent, pressing onto the rein which presses onto the pointer finger allows the rider to maintain consistent rein length without finger and forearm tension. Very important, and often missed.

[SuzieQNutter]

@sascha

Getting to the point of proving a rein or both reins together takes a lot of give and take and reinforcement.

Side reins are not hands. Hands do not have a longe line to control the snout of the horse so equating the lateral flexion achieved with side reins and longe line to that of the rider is nonsensical.

Releasing a rein will not cause a horse to whip its head in the opposite direction if the give and take makes sense to the horse. In fact, if it does, then the rider has probably been annoying the crap out of the horse by hanging on that rein instead of using judicious giving and taking and the horse needs to get the heck away from the hanging, inert, dead, uncommunicative hand asap.

While the outside rein controls the amount of flexion, it is absolutely essential to be able to initiate flexion with the inside hand or all we are doing is neck reining and I assume we all are talking about (classical) dressage here, yes?

The inside rein is no more evil than the outside rein when used properly. Some will say that you can block the inside hind with the inside hand so it’s the devil. Well, you can block the entire hind end with either hand, so … it’s the correct use and the meaningful and clear way in which the hand is used that is important.

I will agree to disagree. Lunging correctly in SOLID side reins, with out pulling their head in teaches a horse with absolutely no idea correct contact and will not pull on the rider. This does not happen overnight and will happen without shortening the side reins. Patience and skill in the lunger is needed.

I do not use elasticated side reins because as above, use loose side reins the horse gives a pull the elastic gives the horse gets its release of pressure and learns to pull and lean. Yes I know rlthat is controversial.

Same on the horse, there is no whipping of the horses head or releasing willy nilly, it is not done overnight. It comes from seat, legs and hand and always remember that horses learn much faster than riders.

This needs to be done with skill and empathy for each horse as the aides to ask a horse to rear is to hold the reins and kick, so never do that with a horse or have a horse who does not know think you are going to do that. This is a dangerous realm for a rider. I personally know of 2 instructors who tried to rush a horses training in this part and ended up with broken legs. Another instructor was lent a horse for an instructor’s school which was a green mare taken out of the paddock.

The mare was doing so so so well and I was riding the instructor of the group’s horse in the lead, who was actually my chief instructor years ago at pony club. She called out halt.

I halted Soup and the look on terror on her face was so stricken, that you have never seen a rider dismount faster. I landed and looked around to see the mare teetering at the top of the rear and starting to fall backwards. The rider was so lucky that the rump hit the ground first. The horse then went sideways. The rider was white and sitting there saying ah ah ah for 5 minutes.

It turns out that the mare was going so well that when halt was called out, the mare halted. Instead of rewarding the horse and thanking her for being so good. The rider felt annoyance that the mare had halted. She kicked the mare with both legs and did not give with the reins. The mare shot forward, hit the bit and had nowhere to go but up.

Proving the rein is done with the inside rein. Make sure you do not take up more rein than you had before you proved. It is done when the horse understands.

With both reins the rider has to have the skill to a) never pull. Instead you hold if they are resisting. The difference is that when you hold, when the horse gives the elbows do not move back and the rein goes loose, rewarding the horse instantaneously. If you are pulling when the horse gives your elbows go back. You pull and the rein does not go loose, so the horse is not rewarded for giving.

B) with both hands the rider needs to have the skill that the horse never hits the bit when you ask the horse forward, without throwing the reins away and losing contact.

On a horse that has not been trained to go with the inside rein on as in lesson horses and incorrectly trained horses. Holding the inside rein means you block forward and the horse will raise its muzzle and head.

[sascha]

@SuzieQNutter

I’m not going to waste time replying to each point except to say,

1. no-one ever mentioned type of side reins. Elastic or solid, doesn’t matter as long as those stupid doughnut things that bounce around are not used.

2. There are 2 types of flexion - longitudinal and lateral. Lateral flexion absolutely 100% involves using the inside rein.

3. Proving the rein can be done with just the inside rein (to prove lateral education) or with both reins at the same time (to prove self-carriage).