Tongue over the bit

[CanteringCarrot]

The “addiction” thing reminded me of a few things. I swear some of these intelligent, sensitive, and almost emotional Iberians get a bit OCD or can develop self soothing behaviors because they can be stressy little internalizers, but also incredibly chill. It’s hard to explain. This might be discomfort and tension, but also partly a “tick” with him too. So you’ll have a physical and mental hurdle to overcome.

I agree with the notion that he’s backing out of the contact too though. Mine had the habit of wanting to hide behind the vertical, and training as well as the Fager bit, helped. That bit gives him something to put pressure into. I don’t want to say lean, because he’s not leaning exactly, but he’s putting some weight in my hands instead of none. In the double he puts the right amount of weight in my hands, is comfortable in the contact, and perhaps likes the type of communication offered by the double, especially for the 3rd level level up type work. I’m not saying to put yours in the double if it’s not right, but that he will get there and might not be as invasive with it as you think, but I don’t know. I do not believe that the curb made it look better for my horse or exacerbated the issue, and the trainers I ride with would (borderline brutally ) point this out. However, mine did not have this tongue issue and improved in his snaffle as well prior to going to the double. Just wanted to clarify that I didn’t mean put the double on and it will be fine.

Mine does prefer the bit higher in his mouth and every time I’ve tried to put it lower, he clearly objects (with a few different bits). So there’s that too.

I also find that with these breeds they’ll do everything and anything for their rider, and are quite capable. So although they can and will do the work, they’re not always mentally ready. It can be easy to unintentionally overface them. I have no idea if you’re doing this since I don’t know you or the horse. I really feel as though Iberians are different, but if you’re working with a trainer who is familiar with them, that’s a huge plus. If you have a good natural feeling, that helps too.

I think it’s possible that you’ll have to go back to basics with this issue. It’s a basics issue that you don’t want to hinder you later. The horse has to be confident, consistent, and comfortable in the contact to succeed and progress correctly in his work. Would be interesting to hear updates/how toi ultimately overcome this issue, OP.

[iberianfan]

@CanteringCarrot, can you pm me? I don’t want to derail this thread, but would love to talk about bits and Iberians. My guy ducks behind dreadfully when tense and in a double. Currently in a snaffle but chews excessively.
I tried to pm you, but your profile is private.

[arbeegirl]

My 6 year old OTTB is very talented at getting his tongue over the bit. He was doing it when was very tense and not in front of my leg. I also concentrated on getting him in front of my leg more than what his mouth was doing during the ride since that usually fixed the issue.

I tried several different bits and nosebands. He does like the collegiate comfitec noseband the best out of any and not tight.

After trying several different bits for his very soft mouth, I found a loose ring mulllen mouth with tongue relief (and is dressage’s legal) has stopped him from playing with his tongue. I also measured his mouth to make sure I was using the correct size. He has a small mouth, 4.5”. I don’t see his tongue flopping outside of his mouth anymore.

[Arlomine]

Well, thinking a little out of the box here… In addition to all of the above here’s something you can try. It has worked with me in the past with horses who have established some sort of tension related bit issue.

Attach reins to the Caveson. You can experiment with what kind of Caveson works best. Sometimes one of the nice old fashioned true drop Cavesons work well. The Caveson should not be very tight. Just snug enough that it doesn’t slide around a lot.

At first you could try just leaving the bit hanging in the mouth sans reins. Most horses work off of just nose contact very nicely. If yours is one of those, you can work him in the Caveson exclusively for a while and leave the bit completely out of the picture. Eventually you can put reins on the bit and let them hang with no influence until that’s not a problem, then you can start riding as if you were in a double. Leave the reins attached is a bit loose and gradually start incorporating the bit after the horse is relaxed and working well off the nose band.

I put together a “frankenbridle” many years ago, and have used it with success on three of four horses. If you use a regular Caveson, you attach the reins above the cheek pieces on the nose piece, not below.

[pluvinel]

@Arlomine

Attach reins to the Caveson. You can experiment with what kind of Caveson works best. Sometimes one of the nice old fashioned true drop Cavesons work well. The Caveson should not be very tight. Just snug enough that it doesn’t slide around a lot.

At first you could try just leaving the bit hanging in the mouth sans reins. Most horses work off of just nose contact very nicely. If yours is one of those, you can work him in the Caveson exclusively for a while and leave the bit completely out of the picture. Eventually you can put reins on the bit and let them hang with no influence until that’s not a problem, then you can start riding as if you were in a double. Leave the reins attached is a bit loose and gradually start incorporating the bit after the horse is relaxed and working well off the nose band.

I put together a “frankenbridle” many years ago, and have used it with success on three of four horses.

Actually, this is “back to the future.” If you look at old engravings (I will try to find) you will see that in the baroque era, the training books showed horses that were ridden off the the cavesson as the introduction to the use of the bit. The iberians (riders not horses) still use a device called a “serreta” to achieve this. The serreta is a leather covered metal nosepiece that can be very severe with a solid rigid metal hose piece, or soft with flexible cable.

But I am NOT advocating use of a serreta…just saying that maybe your horse was previously trained that way.

You can use what is called an “english jumping hackmore” to achieve the effect.

Here is the Tory Leather version

You can hang this off the snaffle loops of the full bridle and hang the bit off the curb cheek pieces to let the bit just sit in his mouth.

Image of a serreta…I am NOT advocating use of this

[pluvinel]

Here is an image from the Duke of Newcastle’s book - A General System of Horsemanship (circa 1700) shows how this was done

[Arlomine]

Yes, this is not a new idea. And Lots of colt starters use what they call a half breed, which incorporates a bit and nose band.

You don’t really have to buy a special Caveson to do it though. You can attach reins to the one you’ve got

[eightpondfarm]

or have a nice thin halter under a western headstall. Or completly remove the noseband on your english bridle. This is what i do with my horse-pup. But i use the reins on the bit. Just saying, it’s a cheap and easy alternative to purchasing

[OzarksRider]

OP, what bit are you using now? Where does the bit lie in your horse’s mouth? IIWM, I’d start simple–like others have said, take off the nose gear and drop the bit position so that your horse can carry the bit as he likes. Very often a horse that puts his tongue over the bit is trying to relieve tongue pressure that he can’t avoid any other way, and this is because the bit is too high in his mouth. In these cases, simply adjusting the bit position will resolve the issue. If that doesn’t help, then start looking at other bits. Some horses are particular in what they like–single joint or double joint, with/without a roller or barrel, etc. A lot of horses really like sweet iron with copper inlays.

[the_sandiest_shoes]

This is what I’m using now - he seemed happier with it at first but it didn’t stop the tongue behavior long term.

I’m could try lowering the bit before raising it…seems low already to me but I’ll try.

[Kyrabee]

My question…what do you do when he gets his tongue over the bit?

I have a mare (1/2 Andalusian so I know that tension) that has very fleshy inner cheeks. Come to find out the bit was pinching that fleshy tissue when she would grab the bit, I believe in an attempt to stabilize it. She was getting pinched between the bit and her teeth. Try as I might, I couldn’t convince her that the pinching was self inflicted. It took me forever to find a bit that didn’t pinch her but lo and behold, she could get her tongue over it. It is a arched bar Mullen mouth! At first, I would stop and let her fix it. She figured that out pretty quick. It seldom happens now but I learned to maintain the gait/exercise but I reach forward and ‘shake’ the reins at her which usually allows her to pull her tongue back and get it where it belongs. She got her tongue there, she can get it back without breaking the gait or exercise.

He has a ‘dry’ narrow head. You might want to check his inner cheeks back around the first molar. Make sure he isn’t getting pinched. This is her damage back in the day. This is pretty mild. Back in early bad days, there was blistering and the bruising far worse.

I ride her in either a Peewee bit (not legal) or a Neue Scheule turtle tactio. She like the thinness of that bit over her tongue.

Some of these guys…add bit fit to saddle fit. It is just as important.

Good luck,
Susan

[Posting_Trot]

A Turtle Tactio (Neue Schule) is a great bit to try.

But I also wonder if you’ve tried the horse in a fixed-ring (d-ring or eggbutt or similar)? Some horses really prefer the relative stability of a fixed ring. You might even try a baucher bit. My previous horse was a fussy-mouthed TB. She disliked all loose rings and her most favorite was the a Herm Sprenger KK Baucher.

[pluvinel]

@the_sandiest_shoes

This is what I’m using now - he seemed happier with it at first but it didn’t stop the tongue behavior long term.

I’m could try lowering the bit before raising it…seems low already to me but I’ll try.

Well…besides the expense…this bit exemplifies a loose-ring snaffle bit that pinches the lips. Look at the space between the mouthpieces and the rings…perfect place to pinch fleshy lips.

I’m a big advocate of slimpler is better…and like to use egg-butt ends, for either standard snaffles or full cheek snaffles.

Interestingly, my current project likes the simple, single jointed snaffle. No fancy lozenges. He goes in a full-cheek with appropriately placed keepers.

[the_sandiest_shoes]

Ordered a neule schule egg butt that had great reviews (and a cob bridle). Will see!

[pluvinel]

@the_sandiest_shoes

Ordered a neule schule egg butt that had great reviews (and a cob bridle). Will see!

Come back after you’ve had a chance to use the new bit.

Keep us posted on what you find out. We can all learn what new and interesting behaviors horses can come up with.

[MapleBreeze]

I love my neule Schule bits! I’d raise the bit in the horses mouth and make sure I had a flash. If that didn’t work it’s not a crime to use a double and keep your curb really loose. Some times more stuff helps the horse feel more stable.

Also, what are you schooling? Are you asking too much of the hind end? Maybe the horse needs to plateau a few weeks? Are his shoulders loose or are you holding him together? Can he carry himself in the contact without you holding him up?

[endlessclimb]

This bit is also illegal. Page 11.

https://www.usef.org/forms-pubs/96D17lSsaCo/annex---bits-saddlery-equipment

[Jealoushe]

A lot of horses use their mouth to express pain or discomfort elsewhere.

Could there be an issue with saddle fit or being in any pain in the feet, neck, pelvis, etc?

[beowulf]

What exactly are you doing, right before the tongue goes over the bit as far as work?

And when the tongue gets over the bit, what are you doing after as far as work?

I have a horse who can get tense, and when he gets tense the tongue comes out. That is my sign that I totally missed the signs six exits ago.

Something to consider. I’m not saying to throw in the towel and be done for the day, but sometimes you need to back off before the horse becomes really unhappy; a tongue coming over the bit and out of the mouth is an unhappy horse. It will continue to be unhappy for the rest of the session which benefits no one.

The tongue is never a liar. Its presence over the bit or out of the mouth tells us that the horse is uncomfortable or unhappy somewhere. I see it most often with horses who have SI pain or bilateral suspensory discomfort. Occasionally, it can be from poor saddle fit or general body pain. Very rarely is it because of the bit or the bridle; you will know if it is either of these if the behavior resurfaces in a different set up.

If it were me in your shoes I’d be backing off of the ridden work and agree with @ASB_Stars, this can be fixed from the ground. Figure out what the precursor is to that tongue going up, and then go one step backwards from wherever that step was. Generally horses who do this really do not understand contact or have no confidence in the bit - tongues going up over the bit is their answer to getting away from the contact. It is not a misbehavior; they do not understand the pressure in their mouth or tongue.

It may be he needs a month of long-lining to develop confidence in the bridle and his body. It may be that there is something bothering him behind. All we can do is guess, but a tongue out is a red flag to a horseman.

[the_sandiest_shoes]

As mentioned, he doesn’t do it all the time, just once in a while - I doubt it’s a pain issue. If it were, I would think he’d do it more than once in a blue moon (like once a month). His saddle was rechecked recently. We’re schooling Third and have been gently working on it for some time now. Showed it a bit last year and he did fairly well and he’s much improved now. He is gaining strength steadily. If he were older I’d be training more fourth at this point, since canter is his best gait and the collection comes naturally to him (I think that’s his Iberian build), but I’m taking it slow for his mind. We have regular clinics with a top trainer who thinks he’s doing fantastic. Most of our work is just focused on slowing his tempo in trot and building more cadence (tons of transitions, lateral work, half hlts, medium and back, etc) - it’s better and better these days (we didn’t get bad scores at trot before but until recently I never thought we might get 8s at that gait - his progress has made me a big believer that you can improve the trot!)

And good to know about the bit! I recall it legal last time I checked, I see they’ve updated. Like I said, I’m replacing.

I think it’s as simple as the bit is a little too low…I tried moving it down yesterday per one suggestion and didn’t make it to the arena. He was chomping and tossing his head. Moved back to our regular position and he was great. When I get the cob bridle and new bit, maybe the issue will disappear. I’ll report back.

I will say - I think he had discomfort from too tight nosebands before. It was advice from several coaches to tighten and finally I decided to follow my gut (and conscience) and loosen it considerably. He has a giant Roman nose and needs room on the bridge. He has been going much better since I made that decision.