Too much grain?

[impressive-92]

Hi everyone, I have a feed question about my senior boy. He is a very hard keeper, who doesn’t really love hay, but devours grain to no end. He currently is getting upwards of 12 lbs of nutrena senior and tributes kalm and easy a day, split between two feedings. Both are low sugar feeds.This 12 lbs does not include any supplements that he gets. He is usually only willing to eat 2-3 flakes of first cut hay, and he will waste the rest, no matter the quality. He isn’t allowed to have second cut, due to dietary restrictions.

He is at an amazing weight right now, sitting at 1020 (scale, not weight tape) but my question is is this too much grain for one horse?

Thanks so so much for any help!

[tazycat]

I’m feeding a 33 plus gelding 12lbs a day divided into two feedings. TC senior, plus alfalfa hay all he can eat. So no it’s not to much feed. You’re feeding a senior feed they are designed for high feeding rates.

[JB]

At 20% NSC, I wouldn’t consider the Nutrena Senior a low sugar feed. It’s not horrible, there are definitely worse, but it’s not low sugar.

How much does that 2-3 flakes of hay weigh?

What dietary restrictions does he have? If he’ll eat more hay that’s 2nd cutting, I’d rather see that, with less hard feed.

[meaty_ogre]

Of course long stem fiber is always better, unless they just can’t do it. If your horse is thriving I wouldn’t worry. I won’t even tell you how many lbs a day my 25 yo TB gets. People on this board would faint. He’s a cribber who doesn’t have the best teeth, he’s a super picky eater, he’s a true 16.2 and he has the metabolism of Michael Phelps in Olympic training. I feed what it takes to keep his weight where it needs to be. I just thank God I’m married to the feed dealer or I wouldn’t be able to afford it! :lol: I should also point out that he doesn’t have metabolic issues (other than his metabolism being set to full-on hellfire furnace!).

For what it’s worth, mine is also mostly on Kalm N EZ which is a beet pulp based feed, with soy hulls, wheat middlings and alfalfa meal which are all high fiber ingredients. To me, there is a difference between a forage-based feed like Kalm N EZ and “grain” or grain-based feeds. Although Tribute doesn’t promote Kalm N EZ as a complete feed, several of our customers use it as one with great results.

If you’re concerned about NSC, always do the math.

12lbs of 20% NSC feed = 2.4lbs of NSC
20lbs of 15% NSC hay = 3lbs of NSC

So if you can’t find a low NSC hay that he eats and that provides sufficient calories to maintain his weight, your current plan sounds like it’s working just fine. Having said that though, as JB pointed out, there are lower NSC options than Nutrena Senior, and I’m not a fan of non-fixed formulas. Plenty of people use it and have healthy horses though.

[Palm_Beach]

@impressive-92

Hi everyone, I have a feed question about my senior boy. He is a very hard keeper, who doesn’t really love hay, but devours grain to no end. He currently is getting upwards of 12 lbs of nutrena senior and tributes kalm and easy a day, split between two feedings. Both are low sugar feeds.This 12 lbs does not include any supplements that he gets. He is usually only willing to eat 2-3 flakes of first cut hay, and he will waste the rest, no matter the quality. He isn’t allowed to have second cut, due to dietary restrictions.

He is at an amazing weight right now, sitting at 1020 (scale, not weight tape) but my question is is this too much grain for one horse?

Can you feed him his hay in a largish hole haynet or bag so he doesn’t waste so much? How much does each flake weigh? Why are you mixing the senior feed with the k&e? And you should read the labels of both types of feed to see what the max is per day and feeding. But no, I don’t think it’s too much feed.

As another poster pointed out, “grain” means seeds, such as oats, barley, etc. Many premium feeds are now have more ingredients such as beet pulp, wheat middlings, soybean hulls, alfalfa meal etc that are better suited to feeding horses and not really considered “grain.”

[JB]

The issue of NSC also has to be taken into account with how much of it is consumed at a time. 20lb of 15% NSC hay is consumed at a much slower rate, possibly even over a 24 hour period, than 5lb of 20% NSC hard feed is, which could be in 30 minutes (or less!)

[Bellathemustang]

In my opinion, Kalm N EZ is amazing. Every vet, vet tech, and feed store I have spoken with recommends it above all others. It is one of the most gentle feeds for the digestive track. I would have no qualms feeding that, as much as the horse needs. I don’t know about NSC. I will not feed my girl anything but Kalm N EZ (and hay cubes/beet pulp as she is on a strict no hay diet). When people say “grain” there is a huge difference between Kalm N EZ and some junk sweet feed.

[tazycat]

The Kalm n EZ pelleted feeds i looked at were at 14% NSC the ultra one is 25% NSC so hardly low NSC. TC senior is lower in NSC the the Kalm N EZ feeds are TCS is 11% NSC.

[meaty_ogre]

@JB

The issue of NSC also has to be taken into account with how much of it is consumed at a time. 20lb of 15% NSC hay is consumed at a much slower rate, possibly even over a 24 hour period, than 5lb of 20% NSC hard feed is, which could be in 30 minutes (or less!)

Good point JB. If the OP is able, 4 smaller feeding would be better than 2 6lb ones.

[mmeqcenter]

12 lbs/day is sometimes just what some horses need. Half of that is Senior? Senior feeds are complete feeds, meaning you can, if necessary, feed a horse solely that feed and no other forage sources. Not ideal, but possible. So, I’d say this weight of feed per day is fine. I agree with the others that said to split it into smaller, more frequent feedings, if you can.

[LauraKY]

I fed Triple Crown Senior and soaked alfalfa cubes as an only feed to an ancient pony. TC senior is much lower in NSC…and is considered to be a complete feed. But no, 12 lbs isn’t too much. You might want to investigate switching to TC Senior.

[candyappy]

Doesn’t it have feeding amounts on the bag? Is NSC even an issue if this horse isn’t having problems associated with that?

[JB]

Assuming 6lb of Nutrena Sr, at 20% NSC, that’s not really terrible for a healthy horse. Many horses are perfectly fine with that.

12lb of a fortified feed, with hay, is what it takes for some horses, especially as they get older and aren’t as efficient metabolizing nutrients or calories.

We still don’t know how much weight of hay he’s eating. Or why he can’t have any 2nd cut. I can’t imagine another 5lb of a 2nd cut hay is a problem if 6lb of Nutrena Sr isn’t a problem, when he’s clearly able to chew and eat hay.

[impressive-92]

Hi all! Thanks for the replies. I only have access to what the boarding facility provides, so I can’t switch to TC senior, as much as I would like to.

i don’t know the weight of the hay, but I can get a weight tomorrow when I’m out at the barn.

I can ask for for more than 2 feedings, but it probably won’t be an option, as it screws up the other horses schedules, but it never hurts to ask!

Im mixing the two feeds because he seems to be willing to eat more than if I just stick to one. He’s a weird boy lol!!

He isnt allowed to have 2nd it because he has kidney problems. There is a lot of calcium In alfalfa, which he shouldn’t be eating. There isn’t a set percentage or amount of calcium he is allowed to have, I have just been told that 2nd cut wouldn’t be the greatest choice, unless it’s the only hay he will eat

im looking into a slow feeder hay bag to help keep him munching through the night, and maybe that will entice him to eat more hay, and less pelleted feed

[atr]

With the oldies, you sometimes have to let them eat what they will eat. My 34 year old still has all his teeth, but he’s just not that interested in hay, even nice leafy alfalfa, so he gets most of his calories from Purina Senior, which he loves, and I think is a bit like feeding my grandpa on a diet of Twinkies…

But he looks great, has a sparkle in his eye, and mugs me for his meals, so I just shut up and do what he tells me to.

[JB]

@impressive-92

He isnt allowed to have 2nd it because he has kidney problems. There is a lot of calcium In alfalfa, which he shouldn’t be eating. There isn’t a set percentage or amount of calcium he is allowed to have, I have just been told that 2nd cut wouldn’t be the greatest choice, unless it’s the only hay he will eat

What is the 1st cut hay he’s eating?

Is the 2nd cut only alfalfa?

[Palm_Beach]

The amount of calcium in a hay is usually determined by the type of hay and the soil conditions and how mature the plant is at time of harvest. OP, here is an article to help you out:

http://www.succeed-equine.com/succeed-blog/2016/10/07/myth-second-cutting-hay-best-horses/

[impressive-92]

Thank you all! The 1st/2nd cut hay was what I was told by his vets, i honestly can’t explain it

[betsyk]

Towards the end my horse was eating probably 20 lb of hard feed/day, a strange combination of Ultium and cornmeal and various other crazy things because he had liver disease, but no Cushings or IR so we pumped the calories into him as carbs to avoid protein and fat. If your horse looks and acts good on what you’re giving him, and your vet is agreeing to your plan, then don’t mess with success. Great if he’ll eat more hay, but don’t take away any of the concentrates until he shows you that he can eat enough forage (of whatever kind) to compensate for those calories.

One thing to think about, though: best possible situation would be for him to get a lot of small meals each day. Their stomach is only so big and at least with my horse, he needed 4-5 pails of mush in order to get all that feed into his body. At some point you may need to work out a system with your boarding barn to add an extra meal. Maybe start talking with them about it now so you can problem solve together, before it becomes a real issue. Maybe a bedtime snack?

[impressive-92]

Thank you all for the advise! I feel a lot better about my feeding. One boarder at the barn had commented on how much he got and the colic risk… but then again she thinks everything is a colic risk lol!