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"too much horse" thread. Found this video randomly.

Eventing
#61

I have to ask something. What does “sending them to a cowboy” really mean? I know what my dad would have meant, and that would have been sending the horse off to a “horseman” who would beat the crap out of them.

This makes me wonder if, like with the meat we eat, we are just farming out the ugly work to someone else because we can’t countenance doing it ourselves. This isn’t necessarily an issue, I think Thomas More had the same idea, but I’m wondering if that’s what is meant versus sending the horse off to a more accomplished trainer who would do in-hand work, groundwork, and just take the required time needed (which we can’t do since we all probably have other jobs etc).

#62

[QUOTE=Stoney447;7357328]

I commented on it because I would love to hear people’s ideas about how she likely fixed the kicking problem and other ideas on how to fix these sorts of issues in general.[/QUOTE]

Kicking is hard to ‘fix.’ A lot depends on the horse. My one horse only does it when scared…he is a border collie in a horse suit so if you over correct him, he really shuts down. With him, it doesn’t happen often so I just get his excess energy out. With my mare, she only does it if you hurt her or startle her…I’m careful not to startle her but do correct her if she even threatens to kick. But how you correct really depends on the horse…

With the one horse I had who was aggressive in his field like the one you described, I changed his food and turn out situation. We did a vet exam to make sure he wasn’t proud cut. We did a lot of ground work in the round pen to get him listening to me and following my direction but I also took away the herd situation which got him possessive. He was one who could only be turned out alone. We didn’t really cure the kicking as much as didn’t get into the situations for him to have that response. But did use round pen work to try and get that to be less of his go to response. Good luck. It takes time and work

#63

I did send one to a “cowboy” but he is a cowboy who fox hunts and who also is taken to europe to start many top young sport horses. He does not beat the crap out of them…but does do more ground work and round pen work than most of us have time for. He also does work off another horse and does use his ropes to help horses learn a different response–he doesn’t desensitize them as much as how to respond to things well. The somewhat feral youngster that I sent to him was difficult to catch. She hadn’t been handled much when I got her and was very over reactive. I knew she was more than I wanted to handle. First thing this “cowboy” suggested was having her scoped for ulcers. She came home confident, more trusting and w/t/c under saddle and hacking out. You don’t get a horse more trusting and confident by beating them.

Most people mean by sending them to a good cowboy is to send them to someone who specialize in dealing with the tougher horses. It is a skill…that takes a bit more fearlessness on the trainer’s part and sometimes a willingness to think outside of the box.

#64

[QUOTE=Stoney447;7357328]
… I would prefer to pass him on to someone who is more handy at issues like this, and have tried to find him a good situation, but alas I have not been able to find him an acceptable alternative to me that would be safe for him, so my trainer and I am stuck working on this issue that makes me very uncomfortable.
…[/QUOTE]

Kudos to you, Stoney, for making his safety a priority. Please make your own a priority as well! :winkgrin: No doubt you do just that.

I think there are many horses that have the potential to become like the video horse (including mine). Less focused, more reactive, more defensive and obstinate. And smart enough to quickly learn when boundaries are not well-enforced. It’s a tough situation because yes, it is hard to find an appropriate and safe home for them. I don’t know what the answer is to keep such horses from developing the kind of dreadful habits the video horse had, behavior can doom them to a sad fate. In the right hands they have much to teach, as happened in the video.

Not something I’ve had a chance to experience, but I’ve seen where some of the people who are expert at positive, non-aversive round pen work can get through to horses much faster than other techniques, so they actually spend much less time than most of the rest of us. Maybe that’s a skill riders generally should learn more about … :slight_smile:

#65

[QUOTE=bornfreenowexpensive;7357503]
… He does not beat the crap out of them…but does do more ground work and round pen work than most of us have time for. …[/QUOTE]

Not something I’ve had a chance to experience, but I’ve seen where some of the people who are expert at positive, non-aversive round pen work can get through to horses much faster than other techniques. Maybe that’s a skill riders generally should learn more about … :slight_smile:

#66

[QUOTE=JER;7356478]
I do.

There’s normal kicking and then there’s the dangerous kind of kicking. It’s normal for a horse to kick when startled, it’s normal for a horse to threaten to kick, it’s normal for a horse to warning kick or safely kick in the herd.

But kicking out at a ground person or a fallen rider, or kicking to hurt another horse (or human) is not ‘normal’. It’s anti-social, dangerous behaviour.

Horses are social animals. They know the difference, too.[/QUOTE]

Yep. Totally agree. I didn’t think what the horse was doing was so awful in and of itself but the manner, his attitude. No thanks.

#67

[QUOTE=OverandOnward;7357548]

Not something I’ve had a chance to experience, but I’ve seen where some of the people who are expert at positive, non-aversive round pen work can get through to horses much faster than other techniques, so they actually spend much less time than most of the rest of us. Maybe that’s a skill riders generally should learn more about … :)[/QUOTE]

lol, yes…you could say he spends less time because he is more effective. With my feral mare, her halter came off in the field and we could NOT catch her (was already planning to send her to him)…he came to the farm to help catch her etc. We set up a small round pen in the field. She followed another mare into it. He worked them both a bit as the older mare was a calming influence. Then I took the older mare out and he worked her alone. Took him less than 15 minutes before he could calmly catch and halter her. She didn’t even break a sweat. And this mare was a bit tough. If you put too much pressure on her, she would threaten to kick. You can really learn a lot watching these good guys work a horse on the ground.

#68

Some people tend to get weirded out or shut down when they hear the term “natural horsemanship,” but studying a little bit of basic horse/herd behavior and applying it in practical horsemanship in a round pen setting goes a long way very quickly. It’s not difficult to learn at all. Granted, I had studied equine behavior in school, but it only took a couple of sessions of round pen stuff to get the fundamentals down and apply them to horses I was working with. It is always a huge help breaking through with difficult horses and bringing babies along.

#69

[QUOTE=bornfreenowexpensive;7357494]

With the one horse I had who was aggressive in his field like the one you described, I changed his food and turn out situation. We did a vet exam to make sure he wasn’t proud cut. We did a lot of ground work in the round pen to get him listening to me and following my direction but I also took away the herd situation which got him possessive. He was one who could only be turned out alone. We didn’t really cure the kicking as much as didn’t get into the situations for him to have that response. But did use round pen work to try and get that to be less of his go to response. Good luck. It takes time and work[/QUOTE]

Thanks for the advice! I think I am going to try it. I don’t have much cross fencing so its hard to have a guy out by himself when I have so many to turn out, but I will work something out for him. I also think I will invest in a round pen in the spring.

I know this horse is trainable and workable on the ground because I came on here and asked for advice before about loading him. I ended up having someone come out and help me get him in and with much persistence (ie I loaded him every day and fed him in there) he now loads well…but he will try to kick you during the process if you get in a bad spot. I think the advice about ground work in the round pen is the best move for me.

My trainer keeps telling me that with him the key to progress is gauging my reactions so that I respond to him in a way that he considers “fair.” It is hard though when he does things that put me on edge I must admit. Watching the video of this girl has inspired me to have a more positive outlook at least…but don’t worry it doesn’t make me any less wary of him.

#70

Question for the trainers: after watching this video a few times I got the feeling that even after the transformation this horse seemed more fussy/ nasty over fences than on the flat and that this persisted into his early shows. Do you think this is the case and if so would you guess that is is (a) a sign that he was not ready to do much jumping; (b) a physical issue that bothered him over fences moreso than on the flat; or © part of the natural progression?

If this were your young horse, at what point in his training would you have jumped? If you got the rounds she was getting, would you keep practicing courses, asking for Big Boy Pants, or take a step back?

What would you have done to assess any physical / medical pieces of the puzzle?

#71

Not a pro trainer…but he just looked sulky. Behind the leg and a bit spooky. So at a show over fences he hadn’t seen before, he was less confident and would get behind her leg and was spooking at things. Typical stuff.

Hard to say without really knowing the horse but I possibly would have worked a bit more on getting him in front of the leg. But if he was good a home…you have to practice with them in new environments and they often will step back there. So looking how he did at the shows, I would have kept going and doing courses over the smaller fences (which is what it looked like they were doing) and schooling harder stuff at home where you can be more progressive in the introduction. The fences were small enough at the shows that they really didn’t look hard for him and he was looking like he was getting better and better as the course continued.

#72

I haven’t watched the videos of her showing him, but if he became a bit spooky at a show compared to his behavior at home it could be that he actually lacks confidence in spite of his bravado behavior.

A useful strategy for building confidence for horses like this is to foxhunt them. Just make sure you have a half halt down, leg yeildings in place and a friend to ride behind you who won’t frighten him by running up on him. They learn a lot from following a field of horses through all kinds of terrain and over many different types of jumps at different speeds. They learn to think for themselves a bit and also that their legs are for picking up and putting down carefully and not screwing around. If you train them to maintain 6 feet in front of them they’ll learn to always respond to a half halt and wait for the next cue. Because they love being part of a galloping herd it doesn’t take long for them to discover that if they aren’t bold they’ll lose their herd.

Unfortunately hunting is not available to everyone as a training tool, but if it’s available to you it’s a great one to use.

#73

Kicking out

My little mare, generally a sweet thing, will kick out if something is very hard for her. She’s young, but you can almost hear her saying “This is HARD. I don’t WANT to do this…you can’t MAKE me do this.” It’s not a buck, and really just seems to be an expression of frustration. Should I be correcting her with my stick? Or just keep asking her to do what she finds difficult?

#74

For kicking out, the solution is to ride forward. The mare has to learn that forward is the way to go.

I ignore the kicks themselves. She can kick all she likes but she has to go forward – and of course, she can’t kick and go forward at the same time.

I will add that I’ve been through this a lot. :slight_smile:

#75

[QUOTE=GoneAway;7354637]
Same pair in 2013:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RxPgg-uZuIE[/QUOTE]

Look at those dapples!! swooon!! :eek:

#76

[QUOTE=gr8fulrider;7358162]
Question for the trainers: after watching this video a few times I got the feeling that even after the transformation this horse seemed more fussy/ nasty over fences than on the flat and that this persisted into his early shows. Do you think this is the case and if so would you guess that is is (a) a sign that he was not ready to do much jumping; (b) a physical issue that bothered him over fences moreso than on the flat; or © part of the natural progression?

If this were your young horse, at what point in his training would you have jumped? If you got the rounds she was getting, would you keep practicing courses, asking for Big Boy Pants, or take a step back?

What would you have done to assess any physical / medical pieces of the puzzle?[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=bornfreenowexpensive;7358246]Not a pro trainer…but he just looked sulky. Behind the leg and a bit spooky. So at a show over fences he hadn’t seen before, he was less confident and would get behind her leg and was spooking at things. Typical stuff.

Hard to say without really knowing the horse but I possibly would have worked a bit more on getting him in front of the leg. But if he was good a home…you have to practice with them in new environments and they often will step back there. So looking how he did at the shows, I would have kept going and doing courses over the smaller fences (which is what it looked like they were doing) and schooling harder stuff at home where you can be more progressive in the introduction. The fences were small enough at the shows that they really didn’t look hard for him and he was looking like he was getting better and better as the course continued.[/QUOTE]

It can be very frustrating when you are getting great work at home, but go elsewhere and it all falls apart. But it’s part of the process. People can be the same way, after all. It just takes more work and more time. It doesn’t mean it’s all a lost cause, at all.

If there are ways to change up the environment at home, that’s a starting point. Some horses turn into a different animal when they go from working in front of the barn to back of the barn … from this side of the field to that side … Guessing it’s part of the lack of true confidence in the rider. And the natural instinct to know that things are safe here, but who knows about over there.

Some horses seem to be always ready to rely on what they’ve learned and are untroubled by their surroundings. Other horses seem to be unhinged by environmental changes, even in places they are familiar with. When the horse is spooking because the vines on the fence grew … :eek: :winkgrin:

Quite frankly, this is why more people aren’t into horses. Plenty of people are good enough athletes to manage riding and jumping. It’s the rest of the package that diminishes their enthusiasm … :lol: (Your bicycle is not going to notice the sun changed the angle of the shine on the water trough. :winkgrin: )

#77

Thanks for sharing this I enjoyed watching it so much. What a happy, funny, naughty, totally DISrespectful horse!!! As the proud owner of a horse who is a little like this I can really appreciate this video. Yes, I’ve been ungratefully dumped and left to walk home. Yes, he will occasionally break all the rules and flip me the finger. Yes, sometimes he can be dangerous. But there is a little Black Stallion in all of us, and love does go a long way to controlling a horse. This horse is so lucky he got that owner. And that girl is damned lucky she didn’t break her neck or her courage.

#78

I agree with everyone who says young, undisciplined, athletic horse. I do not agree with everyone who says “lovely rider, soft hands etc” I think that this horse became like this because of the rider. Not enough ground work and allowed to do the spin and bolt when under saddle. So many times I could see the horse was about to spin and rider was not preparing to stop it before it started. Hands were really hard, horse rarely properly going forward (hence could spin or nap). And in the showing clips, curb shank was close to horizontal, horse’s nose hauled in and mouth open - not the sign of soft hands.

Its taken her about 4 years to get to this point. That’s a long time in my book. Yes, he’s got better manners, but he’s still not soft and elastic.

And yes, I do think that I am qualified to comment. I’d love to have this horse - his antics wouldn’t worry me, but they also wouldn’t have been allowed so often.

#79

[QUOTE=phoebetrainer;7360393]
I agree with everyone who says young, undisciplined, athletic horse. I do not agree with everyone who says “lovely rider, soft hands etc” I think that this horse became like this because of the rider. Not enough ground work and allowed to do the spin and bolt when under saddle. So many times I could see the horse was about to spin and rider was not preparing to stop it before it started. Hands were really hard, horse rarely properly going forward (hence could spin or nap). And in the showing clips, curb shank was close to horizontal, horse’s nose hauled in and mouth open - not the sign of soft hands.

Its taken her about 4 years to get to this point. That’s a long time in my book. Yes, he’s got better manners, but he’s still not soft and elastic.

And yes, I do think that I am qualified to comment. I’d love to have this horse - his antics wouldn’t worry me, but they also wouldn’t have been allowed so often.[/QUOTE]

I have to agree with you here. This horse after four years is about where a horse “should” be after about 4 months. IMO, it is all in the early stages of training where RESPECT is instilled, resulting in the actual under saddle training going much easier and quicker. Whoever “started” this horse really, again IMO, missed the boat in those early days.

#80

Having actually been kicked in the head…yeah, no thanks :wink:

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