This is very true and he really does want me to do well. My last project sold and I was able to buy 2 new projects and still have left over money for training the new 2. He is always proud of me but I am sure he is happier that my project sales are now for the second time able to fund new projects without digging into the general fund. 
5 Likes
A 5 year old walk trot horse is likely a basically calm green broke horse. Many many unbroke horses are sweeties on the ground if theyāve had kind handling.
I would always assume the trial ride is going to be the best possible outcome and figure the real problems will emerge later.
I also wouldnāt push a young greenbroke horse so much the first day. I would recommend longe free longe all three gaits and handwalk and inha week or two to see where heās at with all his training. Then a short walk trot ride for a week or two building up cues and communication and co tinuimg to build canter on the ground.
Also get a vet exam. Look at his feet hocks and stifles in addition to his back.
You gain nothing by rushing a horse.
15 Likes
If Iām reading it rightā¦He has been trained, just in totally not what you want! If he was doing walk/trot lessons, my bet is that every time he cantered people got tense and told him to stop it. You asked for something else. With uncertain horses, that could easily translate to a buck. He doesnāt know how to canter under saddle. That is my thought anyway. Treat it as retraining, rather than training.
And have patience!
8 Likes
Agree, also how far did he travel, driven by whom, and whatās he been doing since he arrived?
He could be sore, or have something āoutā thanks to the move, or be stiff and sore from the changes in his living situation.
3 Likes
Agree, I think we forget their fitness isnāt always what it needs to be, right out of the box.
2 Likes
To me this says everything. I apologize, I havenāt read the other posts.
You are now asking this horse to work when he didnāt have to before. And heās being quite opinionated by being asked to work. Youāre going to have to retrain him from his previous job to his new job.
I apply my legs for forward. If there is no response, I apply them quick quick quick without spur. If no response, I apply my legs and a meaningful use of my whip. That seems to tell the horse āI gave you the aid, you ignored it. I reinforced the aid, and you ignored me. I gave the aid and reinforced it with a strong whip. Now you understand that listening to the original aid is betterā. Your horse HAS to listen to your aids. Reinforce them when necessary and then go back to ānothing happenedā when your horse responds to teach your horse that responding is the most pleasant scenario and is the āreleaseā. Not responding equals work. Responing equals release from work. And when you release, you release from any tight rein and let your seat flow with him.
Canter humpity hump? He canāt buck if his head is up and heās moving forward. I know this from having been bucked off multiple times. Donāt pull back (that gives your horse something to brace against), raise your hands and make him go Forward! Legs and whip. Make it hard for him to buck. Release as soon as heās responding. Teach him that going correctly is so much more comfortable that going incorrectly.
It sounds to me that if you had a quality dressage trainer who could be āeyes on the groundā, your relationship with your horse might change. Get a saddle fitter out to check the fit of the sadde. It sounds like heās uncomfortable and there is so much you can do to fix that. Especially with the bit.
Your horse may have tolerated the kids. Now you are asking your horse to accept the riding. These are two different ballgames.
10 Likes
Honestly it very much could just be a matter of fitness. If he hasnāt had to canter under saddle very often then he wonāt have the conditioning needed to maintain a balanced canter. I also agree with those saying he might also not want to canter since walk/trot lesson horses learn that they shouldnāt canter so maybe heās a little ?? right now. I would definitely check saddle fit as well as a PPE of some sort just to get a baseline to reference for the future.
7 Likes
So how much training, exactly, DOES he have?
Does he lunge? Know the proper cues for walk/trot/halt? Know voice commands? Or was he so good-natured that the kids basically just hopped on and kicked and he put up with it? Did she teach him to canter under saddle?
Seriously, it sounds like he a.) is not at all trained, and b.) is having a physical issue, probably due to lack of fitness, saddle fit, and just being a big 5-year old.
I would let him chill until heās seen the farrier, vet, and saddle fitter. In the meantime, I would be gauging his fitness level and training by lunging him - surcingle, no saddle, and side reins if heās ready - and start teaching him what voice commands and lunge whips are. Iām that person who wonāt ride if I suspect a saddle fit issue. I know from experience that just because a saddle looks like it fits doesnāt mean there isnāt something going on.
8 Likes
Ever started a new job after a few years at the previous one? Remember how you felt when you got home after your first day? If youāre like most people, youāre going to be mentally and physically exhausted, even if youāre well-qualified for the position. Thereās so much more stuff thrown at you in the course of a first day of work: policy and procedure, schedules, unwritten rules of office culture, and even learning how to time a new commute. Thereās a reason why good companies put a lot of time and thought into their onboarding processes. Itās all too easy to lose the candidate you spent a lot of money recruiting if their first day is chaotic or if they feel that the expectations out the starting gate are unclear or unfair . Your new boss wants things done a certain way. Itās not the way that youāre used to doing it and you even find yourself completely lost regarding what they want. You try to seek clarification but they just say the same thing in a progressively louder voice. āHuhhhhhh, I thought we hired you because you were good at X.!ā they yell. Most people would feel their confidence waver under such circumstances. Here you thought you were good at what you do and youāre being told in no uncertain terms that your way, the only way you know, is not the right way and youāll have to stay late in order to start all over again.
Your horse had a bad first day at his new job. How can you make your onboarding procedure smoother?
44 Likes
Um, no. Horses are not automatons or military trainees. In decades with horses and providing remedial lunge training for many of them, I would never have considered making contact with a horseās rump with a lunge whip. Nothing like frightening or physically hurting your new horse to ruin your chances of developing trust with him.
Give him time to adjust to his new environment and proceed with patience. As many others stated, treat him like you would a young, green horse, because he IS a young, green horse.
Enlist the help of a trainer with young horse experience if you need to. I definitely wouldnāt give up on him this early in the game. He sounds like a sweetie who needs to be introduced to these new expectations with calm and compassion.
23 Likes
Not this horse this early in the game perhaps, but I absolutely will make contact if a horse is blowing off a cue.
Cluck - snap (sound) - whoosh right behind the hindquarters - contact as the last resort. I normally flick up at the hindquarters, not whoosh the whole lash.
Iāve never had trust issues with any horse I worked with. The ārulesā become black and white as soon as fairly possible and from there itās pleasant. I ask, I expect a prompt response 100% of the time.
4 Likes
Last night seemed to go a bit better but I didnāt canter under saddle so that may have helped the perspective. Did switch saddles and panel shape on the previous saddle may have been a contention point. The fit looked ok but the panels were smaller and rounded vs the large flat panels on the saddle I tried last night. He may just prefer the larger flatter panels. May see what thr reaction is to under saddle cantering today. If no reaction will put the canter on hold until we work through some other things at walk and trot.
On the lunge he was a slug until a couple whip pops. Just noise pops. Then he pulled himself together and lumbered into work. He did canter on the lunge totally sound and a little sassy at the departs. I donāt mind if they wiggle on the lunge as it is muddy enough right now no one is running in the fields unless they are truly just being idiots with a desire to fall down.
Chiropractor should be able to come out rather quickly to check him over. Saddle fitter should be in the area again in the next couple weeks so we have time to see if some muscle building can happen before then. Vet could be an interesting question mark of timing unless I use another clinic that has multiple vets which I would prefer not to do.
6 Likes
It was standard accepted use that any whip is an extension of our arm or leg when riding.
As such they are used as light or forceful, as a tap on the shoulder to get someoneās attention or a squeeze/kick, or push, to indicate direction.
Whips, and taps, pushes and shoves, can be misused if used with improper force.
If we have to go there and abuse those tools to cause discomfort or much less pain, who wants to go there, if you are training any animal, or working with humans?
We had as 8 and 9 year olds one new to the school teacher that was that abusive person.
He would grab us high by the arm or by an ear or the little hairs by the ear and drag us outside the classroom door if we responded wrong to his requests, or froze and didnāt respond at all.
It was terror in class and many didnāt learn well because of the stress involved, you never knew when you would be the one so punished.
Thankfully his contract was not renewed after those years, it was obvious his students were not advancing as they should, last year almost 10% failing and set back a year
Horses can be put in that same situation if someone uses any aid, as whips are, as punishing tools, causing a stressful learning environment, horses responding jerkily and scared.
See Pat Parelli for a good example with his horse teaching video games, horses do respond, yes, but with high heads and scooting around, giving away that training as anything but smooth, clear signaling and fine tuned responses regularly trained horses show.
A fine line to walk we as assistant instructors had been taught carefully and were in charge of teaching our apprentices.
Some were naturals at it and didnāt need help, common sense was enough.
A few had a heavy hand and needed to learn to ease up, or were failed out of our riding instructor program, generally for more than being the kind that trained by confrontation, by taking the fight to the horse, never acceptable.
If a horse is showing resistances, it is up to us to work around whatever problem horse has, so horse cooperates, not fight it until it gives up and performs.
6 Likes
How long has your horse been in his new home? I would give him at least a week to adjust before making a full assessment.
Better to make it simple and longe him or have your trainer get on initially.
4 Likes
This.
You have the horse you bought. I think this is who he has been, and probably why he was sold. I think if you bring him along carefully he will be a new horse. Canter is not always an easy gait. If a horse is not in condition, he can find himself unbalanced and it can be scary for him. If this horse has not had alot of canter, and you said heās a walk trot lesson horse, canter is not big on his agenda, and worry, fear, memory of a nasty canter episode or riders plural, and he may be entirely appropriate for his experience.
Of course he can be trained out of it. He has a darling personality, and you and he can use that to work things out.
It took my horse a year to get strong enough to canter with me on his back, more than a few steps, balanced. Longing work and ground work can really give you an idea of his issues where you can see him act them out, or not, and which you can use as foundation to ask him for more work when riding.
Heās a project, and you have all the time in the world. Enjoy him. I think he will turn out great.
8 Likes
When I bought my horse as a green role 5 yr old, he only had a shaky right lead canter and nearly no left lead. We spent a lot of time on the longe line practicing balance. When asked to pick up left lead canter, heād launch himself and maybe plunge with some minimal bucks before galloping around. He did not have the muscle or balance to canter nicely and hardly was able to canter left at all. This progressively got better and he makes a wonderful dressage partner now.
Particularly if your new guy has some draft in him, canter can be really difficult. I wouldnāt expect him to be able to maintain it for long, and even a 20 m circle might be too tight for him to do easily at this point.
If you have access to ground poles, these can help. Walking them in hand, under saddle, and trotting them under saddle will help him build strength and learn where his feet are. Lots of horses also enjoy pole work.
The above assumes proper tack fit and a lack of injury/hind end soreness.
12 Likes
Not sure what happened to your quote.
What is it about him that makes him unable to jump? I am thinking there is probably a correlation between that reason and the canter difficulty. If itās just breed, then I wonder why a jumping barn took on a young horse of unsuitable breeding. So that leads me to think thereās something else we are missing and some red flags to this whole situation.
11 Likes
Heās a green baby in a new place, in the winter, with a new rider being asked to do more than he is used to doing. Iād give him more time before you start to worry.
I also like spicy mares best but without unlimited funds and never having to worry about resale, generally I donāt buy what my preferred ride is. My best GP (jumper) was a very lazy stallion. My second best GP horse was a gelding that I had a terrible ride on when I tried him, but I knew I could learn to ride him and we could figure it out. He was green and difficult, and it took time but he ended up super.
A lazy horse can be educated to move off the leg properly. If he has been a beginner horse he probably hasnāt ever learned that. Heāll never be a spicy mare but given time and education, fitness, and work to get his body and tack right (if and as needed) you may have a very different horse. Be compassionate and understanding (as it sounds like you are) and give him time to build up slowlyā¦
Good luck and donāt panic yet!
11 Likes
Iād be tempted to school him in walk and trot for a couple weeks, then try the canter again when heās a bit stronger, better balanced, and more obedient. Explain your new expectations in the gaits heās comfortable, then add canter.
On the the boot-camp-vs-sympathetic-teacher front, when in doubt try the approach that is easier to fix first. Itās usually easier to become sharper after being too patient than to walk back training that was too aggressive for the particular horse.
16 Likes
