Totally stupid hunter show questions

[J-Lu]

I’m sorry, hunter riders, but I have some totally stupid questions for you. I’m not even sure what the best Google terms would be to answer these questions.

I watched a A hunter show this weekend and I’m perplexed on a couple of things (especially the scoring). I hope you can help.

1. Are you scored better for landing on the right lead or is it fine to land on any lead and then do a flying change? Are flying changes required at all recognized levels and are you heavily penalized by doing a change through the trot?

2. If your horse cross canters in a lead change, is it best to change back to the previous lead and do another change, or “force” the change, or trot and then pick up the right lead?

3. Is it actually acceptable not to braid? I saw so many unbraided horses in all hunter divisions - I was so surprised! Everyone seemed to be body clipped but so many horses were unbraided.

4. I noticed that some riders took wiiiiiide sweeping lines and followed the rail to many of the jumps positioned on the rail. Some riders were more “handy” and rolled back in front of jumps. Is one way preferable than the other?

5. I watched a 3’ hunter derby and I had no CLUE it was a derby (ushja -sanctioned derby). It was combined with the junior division and I couldn’t tell the difference AT ALL between the regular round and the handy round. There were no height options. I thought they were running 1.5 hours behind but then everyone went home. Is it uncommon to combine a derby with the class offered right before the derby? Or let people ride the derby rides during their particular division?

6. It was very rainy here this weekend and the outdoor arenas were washed out save one. At this show, they had 3 people school in the actual ring over the actual jumps, and then had those three people do their round. Some did their hunter round and their equitation round back to back. Is this normal or was this because of rain? I thought that hunter horses could only warm up in the warmup and then they had to go into the actual ring only for the test, and that they did all of the, say, hunter part of the division and THEN the equitation part of the division. Is it normal to have the riders ride in groups?

Thanks in advance. I’m wandering over here from dressage land and I like watching shows from different disciplines. But I really couldn’t put my finger on a few things at this show.

[ccbenson27]

1. Doesn’t matter unless you don’t get the lead change. But if it is noticeable that you are trying to get the horse to land the lead you may get penalized
2. NEVER trot the lead change always do the skip change if you have to
3. If you are at an A show you need to braid!
4. Handy is preferred for derbies and “handys”
5. No
6. Hunter Horses will warm up in the show ring if its allowed. Some allow it some don’t. And riders do ride in groups

[OnDeck]

1. Landing the lead vs getting a good lead change is virtually no different. However, you may be sacrificing the quality of your jump by trying to force the horse to land. Flying changes are needed to have any chance at a ribbon at a rated show.

2. By the time you’ve been cross cantering for more than three or four strides, it’s safe to say you’ve lost your chance at a ribbon. At that point, you need to do whatever is best for your horse. Asking again hard and getting it is preferable and may salvage your trip above others with major mistakes. I have occasionally allowed my horse to swap back to the outside lead to recollect and ask for a clean change, this will not get a ribbon but at least gets you on the correct lead without trotting. If this isn’t an option I will usually opt to continue cross cantering on an experienced horse, and only trot on a horse that will be frazzled by the disorganization.

3. I don’t braid at B or C shows. I usually just do mane at A shows and mane and tail at AA.

4. For a normal over fences, you should plan to use your entire ring. Handiness is reserved for the handy classes.

5. That entire format is very odd to me. I’ve never seen a derby run like that.

6. Allowing schooling and keeping two cards open (ie you can do your equitation trip during the hunter division) is common at smaller shows, less so at larger shows.

[J-Lu]

[QUOTE=ccbenson27;7976697]

1. Doesn’t matter unless you don’t get the lead change. But if it is noticeable that you are trying to get the horse to land the lead you may get penalized
2. NEVER trot the lead change always do the skip change if you have to
3. If you are at an A show you need to braid!
4. Handy is preferred for derbies and “handys”
5. No
6. Hunter Horses will warm up in the show ring if its allowed. Some allow it some don’t. And riders do ride in groups[/QUOTE]

Thanks, especially for your input to question #5. My only experience with Derbies is with a very high profile hunter/jumper show that happens here once a year. Everyone rides the first round (with height options) and gets a score, and they everyone rides the handy second round (with options). They hand out score sheets for people to keep track. I was so confused at this A show.

And yes, SO MANY horses were unbraided. I was really surprised. I overheard one young girl saying that at a “C” show run by the same management, the judge stopped the show and addressed proper turnout for a show (this came from the young girl, I have no idea what “stopped the show” really meant, but I started noticing turnout after that and was surprised by the lack of braiding for an A show).

Thanks!!

[J-Lu]

Are horses penalized for swapping leads before a jump? For example, the main arena had diagonals with 5 strides. Some horses swapped leads at stride 4 or 5. Is that penalized?

[supershorty628]

[QUOTE=J-Lu;7976782]
Are horses penalized for swapping leads before a jump? For example, the main arena had diagonals with 5 strides. Some horses swapped leads at stride 4 or 5. Is that penalized?[/QUOTE]

Yes.

[OnDeck]

[QUOTE=J-Lu;7976782]
Are horses penalized for swapping leads before a jump? For example, the main arena had diagonals with 5 strides. Some horses swapped leads at stride 4 or 5. Is that penalized?[/QUOTE]

Yes, that would be penalized, although not nearly as much as a late lead change would be. You can still get a good ribbon with a swap unless you’re in very competitive company.

[J-Lu]

Thanks On Deck. Re #2, I watched several riders cross canter for pretty much no more than 2-3 strides, but chose different ways to deal with it. The smoothest I saw was changing back to the outside stride and then changing again, but I think the rider was a smoother rider than some of the other options I saw. I saw some riders really force the change, which changed the straightness of their line but the riders recovered fine for the fences.

The beautiful rounds were clearly beautiful, but those midrange rounds were difficult for me to figure out how they were scored. I appreciate your input.

[OnDeck]

[QUOTE=J-Lu;7976798]
Thanks On Deck. Re #2, I watched several riders cross canter for pretty much no more than 2-3 strides, but chose different ways to deal with it. The smoothest I saw was changing back to the outside stride and then changing again, but I think the rider was a smoother rider than some of the other options I saw. I saw some riders really force the change, which changed the straightness of their line but the riders recovered fine for the fences.[/QUOTE]

One trick of the trade I didn’t mention is knowing when the judge is looking. If you ask for a change and miss it, there’s a good chance the judge is going to look at his card to note the missed change. If he looks up and you’re still on the wrong lead, you’re pretty much done. But if he looks up and you’re on the correct lead, you might have a chance for a lower ribbon. He may never have seen how you fixed it, which can make judging those mistakes a little tricky.

[stolen_virtue]

I have shown hunters a lot but Mr. Stolen use to refer to the judging as the figure skating judging of the Horse Show World. He hated it and I just shrugged, judges either hated or loved my mare. I learned to not get too excited nor too dissappointed. My gelding (her half brother) never did well in the hunter ring, he was much too practical changing leads always before the fence on the diagonal (he knew the turn was coming). I don’t think I will bother with hunters with my young one.

[Groom_amp_Taxi]

@J-Lu;7976775

I started noticing turnout after that and was surprised by the lack of braiding for an A show).

There can also be unrated or B or C rated divisions at a show that has some A rated divisions, and the braiding can be optional in those divisions.

[J-Lu]

[QUOTE=Groom&Taxi;7976913]
There can also be unrated or B or C rated divisions at a show that has some A rated divisions, and the braiding can be optional in those divisions.[/QUOTE]

Groom&Taxi, the show schedule is here, Jan 22-25. Should be all A rated because the show is A rated? Is that right? The prize list takes about 5 minutes to load should you want to click on it, don’t be deterred.
http://www.trianglefarms.com/

Thanks, OnDeck, that makes alot of sense. I have shown alot in dressage and I understand the tricks/strategies for showing, but I’m not so aware of them for hunters. What you’re saying makes sense. I saw a number of mistakes in changes but they were fixed pretty quickly. The judge seeing/not seeing the correction could very well account for some of the scores. The smoothest fixes - which didn’t change the line to the next fence - seemed to score the best.

I know that there’s a style component for the horse, too. My eye isn’t good enough to look at the rider and horse at the same time, which undoubtedly contributes to my inability to figure out how the subtle aspects are judged.

Thanks, all, for helping me understand this show.

[Night_Flight]

Basically, trotting is a very, very bad thing to do in the middle of your round unless you’ve specifically been asked to trot a jump (which would only happen in a handy class or a medal). From a judging standpoint, you’re better to be on the wrong lead than to trot the change. Some divisions or classes will specify that trotting the changes will not be penalized, but at a large ‘A’ circuit show, those divisions will be few and far between.

Are you sure that there were derby rounds or were you just going by the schedule? It’s possible that they cancelled it due to weather or lack of entries.

[Night_Flight]

@J-Lu;7977015

I know that there’s a style component for the horse, too. My eye isn’t good enough to look at the rider and horse at the same time, which undoubtedly contributes to my inability to figure out how the subtle aspects are judged.

If it’s a hunter class, the judge will be looking only at the horse; the rider doesn’t matter at all.

For an equitation or medal class, the judge will look at the rider and only take into account the rider’s effect on the horse rather than the horse’s own performance.

[Night_Flight]

Looking at the prize list, I see that the Juniors had a handy class as part of their division. That would explain why you saw some regular hunter rounds mixed in with more handy-looking rounds.

At most hunter shows, it’s common for the judge to keep track of up to four over fences classes at any given time. This allows the horses to warm up just once and then complete several classes back to back, usually in a group of three riders taking turns with each course.

If the schooling areas were deemed unsafe due to weather, it’s possible that they could have allowed the riders to warm up as a group indoors, though that would be a very rare occurrence.

As far as the braiding goes, you will see almost every horse braided for all of the non-schooling hunter divisions at most shows. I suspect that in this particular area one barn must have decided not to braid in the winter and others saw them place and decided to follow. It’s definitely not typical.

[J-Lu]

[QUOTE=Night Flight;7977024]

Are you sure that there were derby rounds or were you just going by the schedule? It’s possible that they cancelled it due to weather or lack of entries.[/QUOTE]

I was at the show in the afternoon and watched the rounds. I asked the show management (who radioed the TD) and then later asked the TD when the derby would start. He said at about 8 pm. I asked when the order of go would be posted and he said 30 minutes prior to the class. I left for about 1 hour, and came back. The order of go was posted. i didn’t recognize many of the riders but noticed that several of the riders were juniors in the class before the official derby. There were about 15-20 riders listed in the order of go, I can’t imagine it was cancelled after the order was posted. An aside, there was a hunter championship class listed before the derby, and when I asked the show office about it, they said “it runs with the class”. I asked “what does that mean”? They sent me to the TD. The TD said that it meant that they collected the scores whenever the division occurred. I asked him specifically at 5 pm when the derby would start and he said “about 8 pm”. I was there at 8:05 and the junior class seemed to be running concurrently (the announcer was talking about junior hunter classes. Things went until after 9:30 pm and it seemed to close down after that. Specifically, the show office seemed to close down and the judge left the box. I hung around…and went home.

i hope someone who was a the Raleigh Indoor A Hunter Show this past Saturday Night can tell us what happened with the derby!!

[J-Lu]

[QUOTE=Night Flight;7977053]
Looking at the prize list, I see that the Juniors had a handy class as part of their division. That would explain why you saw some regular hunter rounds mixed in with more handy-looking rounds.

At most hunter shows, it’s common for the judge to keep track of up to four over fences classes at any given time. This allows the horses to warm up just once and then complete several classes back to back, usually in a group of three riders taking turns with each course.

If the schooling areas were deemed unsafe due to weather, it’s possible that they could have allowed the riders to warm up as a group indoors, though that would be a very rare occurrence.

As far as the braiding goes, you will see almost every horse braided for all of the non-schooling hunter divisions at most shows. I suspect that in this particular area one barn must have decided not to braid in the winter and others saw them place and decided to follow. It’s definitely not typical.[/QUOTE]

THANK YOU!! i noted that the handiest of the juniors scored lower (in the 60’s) than the wide sweeping rounds of the others (in the 70s). From watching the schooling rounds, the riders did what their trainers told them to do regarding lines. I don’t know why they chose that strategy. But I really don’t know what I was looking at, either. Thank you!

[Groom_amp_Taxi]

@J-Lu;7977015

Groom&Taxi, the show schedule is here, Jan 22-25. Should be all A rated because the show is A rated? Is that right? The prize list takes about 5 minutes to load should you want to click on it, don’t be deterred.
http://www.trianglefarms.com/

J-Lu, I looked at the prize list, and there are some ‘C’ rated divisions (e.g. Adult Amateurs, Pre-Greens) and some non-rated divisions (e.g.Hopeful Hunter). However, I didn’t see anything about braiding being optional - maybe that is would be found elsewhere?

[Linny]

My computer won’t open the prize list from this weekend, but will open the one from the previous show. I did see several “Non-A Rated” divisions including Modified, Special and Hopeful Hunters. In most cases, horses wouldn’t be braided for those classes.

[caughtintheact]

I was there (spectating) at this show.

1. Whether you land on the correct lead or do a lead change doesn’t matter. Simple changes are penalized.

2. It’s best to finish the change without trotting score-wise (break of gait results in a lower score). It doesn’t matter whether you swap back to the other lead then get a clean change or if you catch up behind.

3. Few people braid for this show because it’s early in the year and not one of the bigger and well-attended shows at the location.

4. The handier turn is better for handy rounds and derbies.

5. I wasn’t there for the derby but I find it hard to believe they combined it with the juniors…the show only offers a national derby, which is 3’ with 3’5" options, whereas the juniors are 3’6".
   edit: The children’s (which is 3’) is what went before the derby, not the juniors. I did stay through the end of the children’s and the derby was definitely not combined with it. Perhaps what you thought was the derby running with the children’s was the THIS medal, which did run with the children’s? IIRC the children’s ended around 4:30-5:00 or so. Also, many of the children’s riders do also compete in the national derbies because it’s the same height as their division.

6. They cancelled warmups that day and my guess is they wanted to give the horses a chance to get in the ring with the jumps so they wouldn’t all wig out on their first trip without a warmup. Also as you said the schooling rings were very sloppy and the horses weren’t able to warm up well out there.