In regards to the derby, horseshowsonline.com said “CL#552 USHJA NATIONAL HUNTER DERBY WILL BE HELD SUN. AT 7:30 am in main arena. Ring 2 will start at the completition of the Hunter Derby”. Its likely that the rest of the classes ran so late they had to move it to the next morning, which means you saw the end of the JRs I’m guessing.
I saw pictures and a video of the outdoor rings, they were atrocious.
Thanks, guys. If certain classes were “C” rated, I wouldn’t have picked up on that. i downloaded the show schedule but it wasn’t amazingly clear to me.
Thanks, Sarah616. It could be that the derby was moved, but why would they have posted the “order of go” that night? I specifically went down to look at the order of go (the TD said it would be posted 30 min before the class, and the show office told me that the class would start around 8 and I should go talk to the TD). The TD said it would start at 8. That said, maybe it was moved. It makes sense because nothing I saw resembled a real derby. Is moving this from one day to the next uncommon? What about the riders who are preparing their horses for this class (money is offered)? Or the spectators? Man, I was there at 8 pm due to the advice of the TD and the show office and I was just a spectator (I showed up and first asked about this at about 2 pm). How could they be that OFF as to not know that they needed to reschedule a Derby, which attracts crowds on a sat night, to the next day? How do trainers and owners manage the rides on the same horse when it changes from day to day?
Sara, I guess I did watch the end of the juniors even though the “Derby Order of go” was officially posted as if it was happening. (I sought it out and looked at it). No notation on the actual order of go that it was happening the next day.
Dear USHJA, I totally rearranged my day to watch the classes and the derby scheduled for Saturday night. I don’t understand how you PUT OFF the most attractive spectator class ($$$ offered) from a Saturday Night to a Sunday Morning without bothering to inform the spectators. Further, as someone who inquired multiple times during the day, I’m dumbstruck by how the information of the timing of the show by officials was so mismatched to the actual timing of the show. i was AT the show and MONITORING the classes, how could I have figured this out? Why didn’t they announce this? Why was I there until 10 PM figuring out what the hell was happening even though I asked about the schedule throughout the day to all the right people? GET IT TOGETHER, Raleigh!
[QUOTE=J-Lu;7977162]
Thanks, guys. If certain classes were “C” rated, I wouldn’t have picked up on that. i downloaded the show schedule but it wasn’t amazingly clear to me.
Thanks, Sarah616. It could be that the derby was moved, but why would they have posted the “order of go” that night? I specifically went down to look at the order of go (the TD said it would be posted 30 min before the class, and the show office told me that the class would start around 8 and I should go talk to the TD). The TD said it would start at 8. That said, maybe it was moved. It makes sense because nothing I saw resembled a real derby. Is moving this from one day to the next uncommon? What about the riders who are preparing their horses for this class (money is offered)? Or the spectators? Man, I was there at 8 pm due to the advice of the TD and the show office and I was just a spectator (I showed up and first asked about this at about 2 pm). How could they be that OFF as to not know that they needed to reschedule a Derby, which attracts crowds on a sat night, to the next day? How do trainers and owners manage the rides on the same horse when it changes from day to day?
Sara, I guess I did watch the end of the juniors even though the “Derby Order of go” was officially posted as if it was happening. (I sought it out and looked at it). No notation on the actual order of go that it was happening the next day.
Dear USHJA, I totally rearranged my day to watch the classes and the derby scheduled for Saturday night. I don’t understand how you PUT OFF the most attractive spectator class ($$$ offered) from a Saturday Night to a Sunday Morning without bothering to inform the spectators. Further, as someone who inquired multiple times during the day, I’m dumbstruck by how the information of the timing of the show by officials was so mismatched to the actual timing of the show. i was AT the show and MONITORING the classes, how could I have figured this out? Why didn’t they announce this? Why was I there until 10 PM figuring out what the hell was happening even though I asked about the schedule throughout the day to all the right people? GET IT TOGETHER, Raleigh![/QUOTE]
As long as it is free for spectators then you are not the person the show management is trying to accommodate. It was likely announced in the barns when they realized the class before was going longer than expected. Changing schedules at the last minute is not unusual for hunter shows, especially smaller shows.
[QUOTE=Toaster;7977275]
As long as it is free for spectators then you are not the person the show management is trying to accommodate. It was likely announced in the barns when they realized the class before was going longer than expected. Changing schedules at the last minute is not unusual for hunter shows, especially smaller shows.[/QUOTE]
While it may be “free for spectators” it takes 2 minutes to announce a change… We complain and complain that there’s no public interest and then there’s a post that shows why! Yes the horse show should and could of announced publicly that the class was moved…
I’ve not braided at several A shows, but they’ve all been smaller A shows. In zone IV in 2013, I did several A and B shows. I think of the 4 or 5 A shows we did, I braided my mare for just the two bigger ones. NO ONE braided for the smaller A shows. I did just one A show last year with my greenie, and he was braided (as were the other horses). I just moved to zone III, and did a Triangle (same show as OPs, but the outdoor version down at the NCHP) A show in Dec. I went with a coach who knows the area and has been doing the local circuits for years. None of her, nor anyone else’s, horses were braided. It was an A show, but small, with only 8 or 10 entries in my mare’s Pre Green division.
Funny, when I was growing up, we were told it was an insult to the judge and the show to not braid. We braided (ourselves, not pro jobs) for every show, even the one day local schooling ones. Seems nowadays, people are more casual about braiding. too bad.
[QUOTE=J-Lu;7977162]
Thanks, guys. If certain classes were “C” rated, I wouldn’t have picked up on that. i downloaded the show schedule but it wasn’t amazingly clear to me.
Thanks, Sarah616. It could be that the derby was moved, but why would they have posted the “order of go” that night? I specifically went down to look at the order of go (the TD said it would be posted 30 min before the class, and the show office told me that the class would start around 8 and I should go talk to the TD). The TD said it would start at 8. That said, maybe it was moved. It makes sense because nothing I saw resembled a real derby. Is moving this from one day to the next uncommon? What about the riders who are preparing their horses for this class (money is offered)? Or the spectators? Man, I was there at 8 pm due to the advice of the TD and the show office and I was just a spectator (I showed up and first asked about this at about 2 pm). How could they be that OFF as to not know that they needed to reschedule a Derby, which attracts crowds on a sat night, to the next day? How do trainers and owners manage the rides on the same horse when it changes from day to day?
Sara, I guess I did watch the end of the juniors even though the “Derby Order of go” was officially posted as if it was happening. (I sought it out and looked at it). No notation on the actual order of go that it was happening the next day.
Dear USHJA, I totally rearranged my day to watch the classes and the derby scheduled for Saturday night. I don’t understand how you PUT OFF the most attractive spectator class ($$$ offered) from a Saturday Night to a Sunday Morning without bothering to inform the spectators. Further, as someone who inquired multiple times during the day, I’m dumbstruck by how the information of the timing of the show by officials was so mismatched to the actual timing of the show. i was AT the show and MONITORING the classes, how could I have figured this out? Why didn’t they announce this? Why was I there until 10 PM figuring out what the hell was happening even though I asked about the schedule throughout the day to all the right people? GET IT TOGETHER, Raleigh![/QUOTE]
USHJA is not running the show, the show management is.
It is normal for an Order of Go to be posted the evening before if the class is the first class the next morning.
What is a TD? Technical delegate?
I don’t mean this in a harsh way, but it’s very possible they announced it and you didn’t understand. It sounds like from another poster who was at the show that the childrens, not the juniors, were going before the derby. It takes a while to really understand how a hunter/jumper show runs (especially at the lower level), with different divisions etc. It is VERY common that things run late, plus take into account weather and closed rings? That would make things very hectic.
At a show like this, the show management is trying to keep the exhibitors happy as best they can (closed rings leading to warm up in the actual show ring etc), they are not focused on the spectators (minimal) for a $5k 3’ derby.
I’m not saying it’s “right”, but show management would be smart to keep the exhibitors happy, as spectators at an A show in NC in January are going to be few and far between.
Ratings of shows v. divisions is always tricky to understand until you get teh secret decoder ring!
Shows can be rated and then within them, certain divisions are unrated or have a maximum rating, for lack of a better description.
Juniors, A/Os, first years, most pony divisions and the performance divisions are examples of “nationally rated” divisions - they will probably be rated the same rating as the show (that determines how many points - points are a combination of rating and class size). So if the show is a C show, they will get C level points adjusted for class size, and if it is an A or AA show, then those points apply.
Children’s, adults and children’s horse/pony are examples of “zone related” divisions. They only account for points in your zone, so no national winner, just a zone winner. These classes can never be rated higher than a C and are awarded points at that level. So it goes without saying (if you have the secret decoder ring) that even at WEF and other super mega large AA shows, the A/A and children’s division is a C rated division. It can never be anything else… you get C points in your AA rated show, you get C points in your C rated show. If you win at a C show with 35 adults that is the same points as winning at WEF with 35 adults. After that the differences are HUGE. 
Then at most shows you have a bunch of filler divisions - either warm up or for horse/riders not ready to compete in prime time (divisions that qualify for zone or national points). Generally you will not see horses braided for these classes unless they have a rated class later in the same day. You can also see a huge disparity in ability in these classes (depending on which one it is) as some people may be using it as a warm up for a very seasoned horse and sometimes it might be a horse getting a little quality reinforcement training ride from his rider and sometimes it can be a really green horse just getting some cheaper mileage.
Also on the topic of braiders, with so many other shows going on in the south at this time of year (WEF, HITS, Gulfport/Pensacola, GA and NC), braiders can be few and far between, so if you aren’t able to braid yourself or are not with a barn that made arrangements in advance, it can be tough to line up a braider outside of the bigger shows. Oh hell, it can be tough there too without the secret decoder ring, but in NC and GA it can just be a lack of braiders to get all the work done.
I think I always braided at a Raleigh A show, but I tended to go to bigger ones than this one. Triangle Farms I usually associate with C shows, but this one was clearly A rated. I would guess it depends on the numbers and if there was a consensus not to braid, but I would expect braiding for the major rated divisions still. I would not really expect braiding for most of the hunters going in Ring II, though.
Personally, even if it was an unrecognized or ‘C’ rated division at an ‘A’ show, I would be braided.
And for the record, braiding is always optional. I’ve never ever seen it listed as a requirement. It’s more like an unwritten rule. As a kid, we braided for everything. I’ve always been told it is disrespectful to show up unbraided, particularly at an ‘A’ show.
Regarding warm ups…there are some smaller ‘A’ shows in the area that do not have an adequate indoor schooling area, and the outdoor may not be available (for example, when it is snow covered or frozen). As a result they will do schooling before each division, and at some of these shows, the rider can elect to jump a designated “warm up” jump that is in the show ring. There really can be a variety of ways things can happen.
Clear as mud, right? 
I grew up doing these shows, usually no braiding at the December Holiday or January show, a few at the Feb show and the March show more were braided (I am not sure they have all those A shows anymore, I think they dropped one). One explanation I heard was it was too cold. But yes braiding is optional, most just do it for the bigger shows.
It has been my experience that most people do not braid for the Raleigh Winter Circuit. If you get a chance to go to the NCHJA or Duke shows later in the year, you will see much, much better turnout.
[QUOTE=janedoe726;7978257]
It has been my experience that most people do not braid for the Raleigh Winter Circuit. If you get a chance to go to the NCHJA or Duke shows later in the year, you will see much, much better turnout.[/QUOTE]
This is true -plus, entries have been light. In addition, our weather has been horrendous, so much rain…and the outdoor rings at the Hunt Complex are under water, unusable for schooling even. This has been true at the last two Raleigh shows. Management has had to move some things around to accommodate needing to allow horses into the ring to warm up, due to not getting to school in schooling rings.
As for the judging, who knows. One judge’s winner is another ones cart horse.
[QUOTE=J-Lu;7976782]
Are horses penalized for swapping leads before a jump? For example, the main arena had diagonals with 5 strides. Some horses swapped leads at stride 4 or 5. Is that penalized?[/QUOTE]
Only if the judge sees it.
The judge’s perspective (their visual perspective, not their mental point of view) is something often forgotten by spectators. What may be a clear swap or rub to me may be out of the judge’s field of view or range of hearing.
With regard to your issues about the derby schedule…I agree with your point about making h/j shows more accessible to the general public. It’s nearly impossible to understand what’s happening unless you’re an experienced insider. Shoot, most of the parents have no idea what’s going on.
I have no idea what a TD is. Next time, try asking a junior rider. They usually know what’s going on. Or ask the gate person - some are friendlier than others, but most are pretty darn nice.
Also, wondering if when the “TD” (?) said 8, they meant 8am?
Just while its brought up in this topic, my horse cannot do lead changes to save his life. Only time he does them is when he gets real excited (ex: about to race my friend hehe) so at shows if I don’t get my lead after the jump I have to trot to get it. What’s the best way to do this? Should I come down to a nice trot for few steps then pick up my lead, or try to do a quick change? Sometimes he gets a little frazzled with doing simple changes, he will get kinda excited and will awkwardly leap onto the next lead too quickly and doesn’t get the whole lead. Sooo yah. Ps I just do schooling shows if that means anything haha
Just a clarification of terminology.
Eventing and Dressage have TDs (Technical Delegates)
Hunter/Jumper shows (and most other USEF disciplines) have Stewards.
Similar but not the same.
For instance, at an Event, the TD is responsible for making sure the fences are the right height and comply with the rules (e.g., safety cups).
At a Hunter/Jumper show, that is the responsibility of the Judge, not the Steward.
I expect you spoke to the Steward.
[QUOTE=Groom&Taxi;7977128]
J-Lu, I looked at the prize list, and there are some ‘C’ rated divisions (e.g. Adult Amateurs, Pre-Greens) and some non-rated divisions (e.g.Hopeful Hunter). However, I didn’t see anything about braiding being optional - maybe that is would be found elsewhere?[/QUOTE]
god, A shows are so complicated! Would they have c-rated divisions just so people can get experience at a fancier show?
[QUOTE=DMK;7977588]
Ratings of shows v. divisions is always tricky to understand until you get teh secret decoder ring![/QUOTE]
I just ordered one of these from Amazon - with free shipping!! LOL
[QUOTE=luvdogz72;7978586]
god, A shows are so complicated! Would they have c-rated divisions just so people can get experience at a fancier show?[/QUOTE]
More likely
A -The entry fees from the unrated and C rated divisions are where the show makes its profit.
B- Those trainers ONLY go to the A shows, so they want all their clients showing at the same show.
[QUOTE=luvdogz72;7978586]
god, A shows are so complicated! Would they have c-rated divisions just so people can get experience at a fancier show?[/QUOTE]
See my explanation above - divisions that are classified as “zone divisions” (code for “regional”) will never ever be anything but a C rated division. They are effectively maxed out at that rating, so all A (or AA and B) shows have both classes with national ranking (which will carry the same rating as the show) and zone divisions (which will always be C rated divisions) on the schedule. The zone classes are popular and generally profitable for show management.
They should have announced/posted if a class was moved… but its possible they DID announce/post but not where the OP would have seen/heard it. They should have done it in a more spectator friendly way given that it was a derby and there was a real possibility of outside people coming to see the class-- but perhaps things were harried due to the weather and less-than-organized.
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