and more easily do night check, and maybe she’s right back there for 5am feeding, or maybe she just feels more comfortable being on-site with the horses. Or maybe it’s so for her dogs so she can easily let them out for potty breaks without having to go home. Could be a variety of things. Even at just 10 minutes away, rarely is there a full 30 minute break where you can run home and back.
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To add to these other oddities, there is the prevalence of thinking among many trainers in the industry, exemplified in the below article, that they should never be questioned, their customers should have no opinions, and their superior expertise in horse training entitles them to total devotion and deference in matters of horsemanship and budgeting. I saw it shared on Facebook recently, with several trainers chiming in about how right it was, and how customers should either shut their mouths about any preferences on any matter, or find another trainer.
I believe it is this attitude that causes many trainers to think it is ok to just stick customers with their personal, random, undisclosed expenses.
I am not a trainer-hater at all–I have many who I love and respect, whose personal and professional success I wish to support! But I do think there are some practices among professionals in this industry that are really bad and have spread quite widely.
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There are a lot of things that trainers do apart from the buy/sell arrangement that could give rise to a fiduciary duty to the client. Mixing in personal expenses into the clients’ bills would likely be a breach. And absolutely clients can demand an accounting from the trainer.
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Ugh. That title is so cringey, and we all know why, but the meat of the article raises good points. We, on this here COTH board, forget how inexperienced the majority of the “clientele” is, especially when talking juniors & non-horsey parents. We all know the latter type that sits on the sidelines for 3 years, watches a few hundred lessons & a few dozen horse shows, and suddenly they start Knowing Things and thinking they’ve got this horse training gig all figured out. Heck, one of 'em even made it all the way to Pony Finals.
Emily runs a pretty good program AFAIK. She also sees a lot of success. I would not be surprised to see parents show up & think that merely writing checks to said program will result in success for their child, and then getting real pissy when it doesn’t.
I don’t think it’s a great example of what you’re talking about when you actually read it. Basically, she has a training system that has proven, time & again, to work, and you are signing up to be a student of it. That system also happens to revolve around what is best for the horse, which is going to require saying NO to customers on occasion. More trainers should try it IMO.
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I may be reacting more to the Facebook discussion around the piece than the piece itself, but I do think that you can be a student AND a customer. There are trainers who demand a lot of money from their clients without showing them much respect at all–and these are the types who often do the shady things discussed in this thread.
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Problem is, the expertise of trainers is far from uniform.
So also with clients.
So one cannot assume that the trainer knows more than the client in every aspect of horse management.
In a perfect world, one would be able to find a trainer that was more knowledgeable than oneself in every respect, but sometimes you need to compromise.
In that case, the trainer should at least be receptive to input from the client.
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I actually said this on TPH FB page when the article was first posted, but I’ll repeat it here.
I see an possible analogy between the trainer and client much like a physician and patient. I hope it’s clear I respect trainers by using that analogy. The trainer has more knowledge than the client, and the client needs to trust the trainer for the relationship to work. It’s not being a customer in the same way that a customer picks out a brown rather than green sweater at the mall. The trainer definitely should say “not on my watch” if the client wants to do something dangerous (like buy an unsuitable horse and become part of the program). The trainer should also explain decisions in layperson’s terms, rather than just say “trust me,” though. It’s okay to suggest a stronger bit for a horse than jumping, but the trainer shouldn’t get angry if asked “why.” Just like it’s a big red flag IMHO when doctors get mad if you ask “why.”
I can understand why trainers and doctors get aggravated when clients show them a blog post or advertisement, convinced that Dr. Google knows better than a wealth of experience. And professionals need to set boundaries about texting or messaging about non-urgent matters outside of business hours, or just excessively.
On the other hand, if a client says something like, “I have a knee issue and can’t do no-stirrup work,” or is worried about the horse being in pain, the trainer again, shouldn’t get angry that someone who isn’t a pro or as good a rider as the trainer has a question or concern, or dismiss what the client is saying.
Which is why it’s so destructive to trust when trainers pad their bills saying “I need to make a living.” I’ve had doctors I thought were knowledgeable but who I also felt always had more of an eye on how to maximize their profits from the insurance company rather than really giving honest advice about tests and treatments that were needed. That’s why transparency is so important.
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Yeah,I prefer trainers who know more on the horse side then I do. That is why I pay for one. BUT that doesn’t give them free rein with my money and refuse to tell me exactly where its going. That I can and will say NO to and continually question. Thats what I think the main point of this thread is-undisclosed charges, double billing, bill padding, sloppy accounting and, you know, fraud. All of which is simply not the clients business should they dare dare to question that surprise 200 or 2k charge.
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Exactly. After I left a trainer, I later heard they felt like I asked too many questions and that they were never sure how much money I actually had because I was judicious and would question the whys and the whats. It was comical to me that my perceived wealth (or lack thereof) had a correlation with my questioning how my money was spent.
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Along the same vein, I wonder if a lot of the less-than professional billing practices that certain (but of course not all) trainers get away with is helped along by the need for some clients to feel that they fit in with the other clients of the barn.
I’ve witnessed situations where a client feels pressure to spend money participating in events or purchasing tack of a certain brand when the increased cost is a financial burden, but the client is afraid of being seen as a (comparatively) poor person if they don’t agree to spend the money.
In a barn where certain clients are trying to fit in with the more well-off clients, I can imagine that there might be some hesitation when it comes to questioning the splits and add-ons for fear of being seen as an outsider who doesn’t belong.
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This has always irritated me. It has astounded me the number of times I’ve heard trainers talk about how much money their clients have (or don’t).
As long as my bills are being paid, the size of my horse budget shouldn’t matter because that’s for ME to manage. And yet, on more than one occasion, I’ve run into trainers who cavalierly make statements like “oh they’ve got lots of money, it’s fine to do [insert some expensive, and undoubtedly surprise, bill]”. On the other (but equally unsavory end), I’ve run into some nasty trainers who gossip about unfounded claims of “money troubles” because of all manner of things.
Client casually expressed interest in a show 6 months ago, and now they’re busy that weekend and not able to go? They must be having money troubles!
Client decided to sell their horse after someone approached them directly with a good offer (and therefore no trainer commission)? Must be money troubles!
Client said their budget for a horse was 20k, and they only spent 10k on a horse? Money troubles!!!
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Yes, current trainer only charges for the fuel split. Because if she wasn’t driving a trailer full of horses that day, she would be giving them training rides, anyway. This is absolutely not normal (and I’d be fine if she charged per mile as is the norm) but it’s her goal to get as many horses to a show as possible. She’s going, anyway, so she might as well load up the trailer and take us all along. If it’s too expensive, many can’t afford the destination shows and won’t go. It makes good sense since she’s also bringing a horse and would be going, anyway. If we don’t go she funds the whole trip. If we go, we share expenses.
It’s a very special and unusual situation, for sure.
I’ve into had one other trainer like this in my life- they did packages for the destination shows which made them way more affordable.
In both cases, horses are campaigning for national awards so it benefits the trainer to have a horse or client with a HOTY or a World/National title as well. Successful clients pay back in dividends.
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Yeah, I say this as a decidedly not rich person, but I’ve heard many trainers pretty much admit that they were encouraging a client to go to a fancy show/buy a particular horse/try a particular saddle or treatment because they knew the client could afford it, not because it was “best practices.” Even if someone can afford to be swindled, swindling is still swindling. (Or, if not swindling, still not great to encourage someone to show at X show, even though the person has no chance and would really be better off spending money on a lesson that weekend.) But it was tolerated, especially if the trainer was apt to NOT to the same with struggling clients (who might get less attention, but be honestly billed and advised).
A trainer I used for years was almost the complete opposite. One of her clients bought her a horse to bring along and compete on, bought her a custom saddle, made suggestions about going to horse trials in the midwest and east coast, rented homes near competition sites for trainer and client’s family to stay in, bought all her food, etc. She was just that way. Client didn’t ride much herself but now her two sons each have a pony of their own
That’s obviously fantastic for the trainer, but the problem arises when the client, you know, is actually interested in riding herself, and the trainer assumes this type of relationship is the norm.
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This bears repeating. Trainers get more clients by having their current clients/horses at shows and doing well. In turn that brings the trainer more income. That should be a factor in the whole “I’m losing money from lessons/training rides at home by being at the show with clients, so I’ve got to make that money up in creative splits”.
When I first started at the barn I was at for years, pretty much everyone showed, so most of the clients and horses were at the shows. Splits weren’t super expensive since there were so many of us. By the time I sold my horse, I was the only one still going to shows. I didn’t expect my trainer to make the trip unless I was funding her - hotel, coaching fee, etc… as she was losing money by being at a show with me. I got to the point (with my trainer’s blessing) that I would not ask her to go and set up show schooling if I felt it necessary (I was pretty self sufficient) with a different trainer that was always at these shows. Helped by the fact that I had my own truck and trailer - which made me hate group shipping and the fee attached. I was going to have to drive myself there anyway, so paying per mile for hauling was a sore point for me.
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The client didn’t have the skills to ride the horse she bought for trainer but did buy an older BTDT horse for herself to pack her around. The trainer has changed gears and is now attending school and tending to her small farm of goats and chickens. She still teaches lessons on occasion and the horse she was riding is now thriving with a well known trainer in our area.
If a pro is being reimbursed for expenses like hotels, stalls, hay, meals by their clients and then declaring those expenses as business expenses, they are in violation of tax codes. By low key passing on a portion of their show expenses to clients (stall splits, hotel, hay etc) while keeping records showing those items as out of pocket expenses, they are evading taxes using illegitimate deductions.
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I more or less said that, post 111, so not sure your point?
Obviously, the point was the same as yours. No harm in repeating it, is there?
