A trainer tried that with my horse who was hesitant to load but otherwise calm. In 30 minutes she taught her to strike out, rear, and get no closer than 50 feet from the trailer.
Perfect example of “not all horses are the same - adjust your training methods.”
Yeah 30 mins of any one training method which results in escalating bad behavior is all on the so-called trainer. A dearth of tools in the toolbox.
Her comment was “I’ve never had this not work”. I think that means “I really haven’t trained that many horses.”
I think what works for any person depends on the person and the horse. “Bribery” is not a bad thing as long as it is a step in a longer training plan. I think it’s perfectly fine to use feed to teach a horse to trailer, but it should eventually be phased out and replaced with proper loading as a result of being led.
Butyou also have to know your horse. Mine sometimes doesn’t want to be led where I want to go. Sure, if I insist by applying pressure she will eventually follow me. But what she responds better to is being asked again by releasing pressure, pointing in the direction I want to go, and clucking at her. If she doesn’t respond to that - which is rare - then she gets a tap with a stick. But I always have better results when I “ask” versus “demand” even though both are non-negotiable.
At at the end of the day you want your relationship to be based on trust and not fear. But there are different ways to get there and as long as you eventually establish that trust then you know your method worked. 
Positive reinforcement is not bribery. It’s training by shaping the behavior. It doesn’t have to be “phased out” once the task is learned because (if done correctly) you don’t reward for every step once the horse has learned it. E.g. you start by rewarding any forward step, and you end by giving the horse a treat only when it’s on the trailer and butt bar is down.
Switching to negative reinforcement = pressure and release - would only work if you’ve trained your horse to respond to pressure and release when being led. And most are trained to respond to that. But if you have never led a horse that way, just grabbing a horse by the halter and applying pressure is likely to result in the horse pulling back. Whether you know it or not - that training has already occurred at some point.
Both may work once a horse is trained. Because horses can (and do) respond to multiple training methods.
We need to remember that a good trainer will use what works.
The better the trainer, the more seamless it will look when it interacts with horses of all kinds.
When we talk about how that trainer does what it does, we are overimposing and dissecting what he did and naming different parts according to learning theries, but the whole is still going to be seamlessly using what the skills of the trainer brings to the table.
Even decades ago, a very good trainer knew to work with the horse, while the bad ones would try to push and manhandle and just were less efficient and brought more resistances on confused horses.
One difference today, in the information age, we can learn from the better trainers, the information in many ways is out there, from many books to videos and directly from the top trainers and/or their students.
In fact, there are so many out there today, the task is made harder now to sort thru all those for the better, not the self or media promoting ones with fluffy training that really are not that good.
I would say the OP would do best to leave the learning theory to theory to be learning all along and try to, when with the horse, learn from someone that is very good, looking at how the horses are working, no matter what they call their theory.
In a few words, if what a trainer is doing seems ok, follow their lead.
If it brings question, do question what you are not sure is going on.
Thank you-I have placed blocks to stabilize, albeit it is an old very heavy trailer.
I gave him about two weeks and tried again today. As you note, he still refused to get in at first, however after a few minutes, I walked him up and stepped part of the way in. We repeated this for about ten minutes, backing out, walking up and partially loading. He is still uncertain about the last step in, but we arent in a big rush.
When he initially hesitated after being asked, we did a bit of ground work yielding haunches, and trotting in a circle, to remind him that he needs to follow my lead, and he was much more responsive and again is loading part of the way willingly.
It seems we have two problems-one is fear of the trailer itself, the second unwillingness to follow my lead into something scary. He has always learned new things VERY slowly, so Im ok taking another few weeks.
She was given to me by vet, as a companion to my gelding, after I lost my other horse. The mare had been injured in a tornado and the owners could not pay her bills so gave her to the vet. She has some scaring around her front pasterns and hoof. The vet said she was saddle broken by a 300 lb person. The vet said she is ok for a few days under saddle but then will “wiggle out from under you” but would be fine as a lead line pony.
I accepted her site unseen, but now that I have her, she is a very pretty 14 hand buckskin welsh/Quarter horse cross with a fair amount of action and a cute arched neck, and has quite a personality. She likes to run around the pasture swinging her head in circles, rearing and bucking and even striking out at the TB-until he pins his ears and moves towards her, then she she literally tucks tail and scampers.
In hand she is very calm, loads well, handles feet well, and stands tied well. She doesnt understand yielding to pressure very well, so we are working on this.
Both with lunging and under saddle, her initially answer to most requests is NO. Then she will stand very tense, even shaking a bit with head up watching me to see what Ill do. I simply reask or shift tactics- very calmly- and then she will comply, but again extremely tensely watching me.
Now after about a month of lunging, she actually now moves right out, drops right into a relaxed walk, relaxes her neck down, and will trot on out and is very compliant, and soft eyed. We have only had about four rides under saddle. I get the feeling she is strong willed without a doubt, but was manhandled a bit roughly, and it has left her very apprehensive.
She is FUN to ride, as she is so sensitive and responsive to weight alone. Five minutes into each ride, you see the relaxation begin, so she is an interesting project.
I must admit this made me giggle. I quite literally do give my developers snickers, as well as cookies and pizza, typically when we kick of large new stages of development. I also pick the conference room that I know they like because it has a white board and a big monitor. I also tell them how smart they are and spend some time pointing out things each has done in the past that are really awesome in front of the rest of the team. If they dont like the chair, our company will buy them new chairs. THEN,after they are cozy, I give the end objective, but I ask them to figure out how we can get there. The rationale is that many of them are INTJs by personality types, so a combination of intellectual autonomy combined with physical comfort tends to be the best way to “lead” them.
I suspect I carry this into other aspects of life, thus the thread-thank you much for your feedback and advice.
I feel basically the same why. I explain to them, gotten pretty fluent in horse speak over the years.
There’s the easy way and there is the hard way. Your choice.
With the way I go about things. They generally figure things out pretty quickly. And make the right choice.
So he still doesn’t load and stay loaded reliably. If you needed to load him tonight, to take him to the vet for colic, could you?
If you want to encourage your developers to grow, celebrate effort, not smarts. Check out Carol Dweck.
At the end of the day, you can’t manage your troops into combat or frustrated developers into tough times. You have to lead them, and their trust and faith in you and in each other has to be so rock solid that they are more concerned with the team than with themselves, their candy, and their cushy chair. That’s the difference between leading a bunch of individuals and meeting their need as (insert DISC label) and leading a team.
With a Horse, I need a team mate who accepts and trusts my directions, NOW, and believes in my leadership even if the chair is a POS and they’re hungry. They get in the trailer.
Ugh, as for loading, in his typical MO, we have regressed. Historically he learns something on day one, then we spend the next three weeks doing it every possible wrong way, before he finally will repeatedly do it correctly. At first I thought he might be slow, but it was explained to me that this is a sign of him being quite clever and exploring all possible wrong answers.
Yesterday, after lunge lines, butt ropes, and 45 minutes, as well as too much frustration we ceased at a single foot in the trailer. And of course later he hid in the trailer to stay out of the rain. In the past, the trainer would resort to lip chains and a lunge whip-which worked…but obviously doesnt “stick” and result in a calm reproducible loading behavior.
As for humans, I admire and strive and strongly prefer the leadership style you describe, and I would choose to work there anyday. But it requires being able to strip a team down and build them back up again, via direct management, boot camp or implementation of new process methodologies that create/reward team goals. Combining this with also recognizing individual motivations creates powerful teams…but Ive also been the martyr when those strong teams are not politically supported. Humans, Blah.
I would be very open to suggestions on tactics/methodologies that reinforce leadership with the horse. This gelding has been free lunged, would “attach”, and yields hindquarters and forehand to pressure very readily-yet obviously this is insufficient.
As for pony mare, I just completed my round pen and free lunged her and she is very challenging, turning hips and kicking in my direction a few times. While I can correct each behavior under saddle, the problem is much larger and again related to leadership overall.
You hit the nail on the head. The horse is smart. This is not a unique thing. This is life. A horse learns in minutes. The rider/handler takes years to learn.
There is no way around this and that is where the saying comes that “You wreck the first horse you own”.
Horses learn so quickly that with true horseman they only learn the correct way and thus they can get a horse to Grand Prix Dressage in 7 years.
With someone who is not horsey, the horse learns the wrong way. It is easier to train that it is to retrain. So now the horse will take longer both with the experienced horseman and with the one who is teaching the incorrect way.
So every single time you are interacting with the horse you are training it. There is no just feeding it, or just putting its rug on you are training it.
Every single time you train it the horse is a little bit worse or a little bit better. If it is a little bit worse 7 days in a row. Then on Monday you will start with a worst horse than you had last Monday, then another 7 days of a little bit worse and you can see how quickly things go downhill.
I have a new horse here. I picked him out for a friend. I am training him each day and he is coming along in leaps and bounds. He has now been here 32 days. In that 32 days he has started dressage training. He is now going in a straight line, he is now bending. He now understands the inside leg. He now understands contact. He is now going off on the left canter lead. He is now loading in a float in under a minute. He is now coming when called. He is now standing still when I tack him and leave him while I am tacking him. He is now lunging in side reins. He is the perfect horse and has not put a step wrong.
She came and started grooming him. She said he tried to bite. I was surprised, as I said he stands there untied for me and has not put a step wrong.
I came to watch and he is not just trying to bite. He is trying to bite 10 times in 10 seconds. Can you see how much he would have learned in 32 days if only being handled by her. This is a lady who has had horses before and would tell you that she is experienced.
There are 2 ways to go from here. Teach her to up her horsemanship or tie him when she grooms him. I am picking A at the moment.
It is not just the way you handle the horse. It is your breathing. It is your attitude. It is your stance. It is your demeanour. This all has to be learned and as I said it takes the rider years to learn. It takes the horse minutes to learn.
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