Treeless saddles and/or Bareback pad

[browneyedcowgirl]

I am considering the purchase of a bareback pad or treeless saddle for pleasure riding a gelding of mine. He doesn’t do much right now, is very out of shape (aka fat) and is sort of built like a kitchen table (wide and flat). I thought that i might be able to get more versatility out of a treeless saddle. Or even a bareback pad. He is a slow, smooth mover and an easy push button ride.

Any recommendations for either bareback pads or treeless saddles?

I feel like someone somewhere once mentioned treeless saddles don’t distribute weight correctly, not sure if this is true for all, or just cheaper brands. I don’t want to cause my old man any pain.
Suggestions and warnings welcome!!!

[Guilherme]

Sounds like what we call around here an “Appalachian Sofa Bred.”

The short answer is that the tree in a saddle is the foundation and it’s primary function is to provide a stable, weight distributing platform for the rider and their gear. If you are not a small framed human weighing less than 100 pounds fully geared up then you are likely not a candidate for a “treeless” saddle. If you sit bareback on a horse and assume a normal riding position you will feel your entire weight concentrated in two roughly six inch circles under your buttocks. For most people this might not be all that much of an issue for casual, short duration riding. But add much more weight or get serious about time/distance on the horse and the equation quickly changes.

As you might guess, I’m not a fan of the “treeless” saddle and consider it to be a defective design from the get-go. There are many who disagree with me. But what they can’t deny is that effective weight distribution is essential for the long term soundness of the horse. I say these don’t; they say they do. Any way to know? Here are two alternatives. I don’t know anything about these people and don’t vouch for them. They just offer systems that can measure pressure.

http://dynamicsaddlefitting.com/

http://www.sensorprod.com/dynamic/sa…re-mapping.php

Good luck in your search.

G.

[anon68314200]

Well I am 6 foot 2 and 185 or so pounds. And I love my two Ansur. I put them on many horses. I disagree with the notion that the riders weight is concentrated in your butt. I carry my weight on my thighs. And distributed over a maximum area possible.

The weight distribution is determined by how the rider organizes their body. In a treed saddle it is entirely possible for rider to have one a whole side of the body lift up off the horse and sit predominately on the other side. For example rider may sit in most of their weight on the left and have very little contact on the right. A treed saddle will not fix this. Only a progressive developing awareness of body usage will address these issues.

I put my treeless on Icelandic ponies, Holsteiner X, Hanoverians, KWPN & American dutch harness horses. Just to name it what I am riding right now.

[Ajierene]

Thanks Isabeau, I was trying to remember the saddles my friend has. She uses Ansur saddles exclusively. She has very drafty horses and found they work much better than treed saddles, which ended up pinching to much.

I have ridden in them and find them very comfortable. She does use a special riser type pad if the horse has a bit more whither. The riser has padding on either side with a channel where the spine goes, so it replaces the act of the tree in keeping the saddle off the spine/whithers.

Her horses have no back/soundness issues and she is not a light person (I would guess about 160 and not terribly young or fit). My knowledge of weight distribution from my training on loading planes is that the act of having a saddle, treed or not, in itself distributes the weight. It is not the same as bareback, or even a cloth bareback pad.

The Ansur may be a bit expensive if you are just looking for a spare, but either that or a bareback pad may be fun. I have a bareback pad that used with a horse with high whithers. I prefered it to just a saddlepad as the girth ensured it wouldn’t move around or slip off. I used one at one time that had stirrups but they were a bit long for my short, stubby legs and hard to use with shorts as the nylon ‘leathers’ would chafe.

[Guilherme]

My knowledge of weight distribution from my training on loading planes is that the act of having a saddle, treed or not, in itself distributes the weight. It is not the same as bareback, or even a cloth bareback pad.

I, too, have some training in loading aircraft!!!

An experiment: Find a muddy spot, and make sure it’s good and wet. Put on your rubber boots and step in the mud putting all you weight on one boot. Note the result. Now take a piece of plywood, maybe 12" x 12", and put it on top of the same spot. Put all your weight on one boot in the middle of the plywood. Note the result. That should demonstrate why a proper rigid tree is generally a good idea.

Or, to paraphrase Bugs Bunny, “The Laws of Physics apply to us all, even if we’ve never studied Law or Physics.”

G.

[lifeishorsesarelove]

I have ridden in a barefoot treeless and it was a delight. Their western model (I believe its called the Arizona) is lovely.

That said OP, if your horse is witherless and round or flat backed, he may not be a great candidate for treeless. The lack of tree can make the saddles more inclined to roll to one side or the other based on how your horse moves, how centered you are, or even just if your horse spooks sideways suddenly.

If you think treeless is a route you want to explore, then my advice would be to stick to the higher end brands of treeless like Barefoot and Ansur, which more closely resemble regular saddles, and make sure you can try before you buy to be certain it will work for you.

As far as bareback pads go, they do very little for your horse’s back. Its a glorified saddle pad strapped to him. Some of the fancier ones might provide some cushion, but they don’t have the structure to actually distribute the weight of a rider. This is why it is CRITICAL that you do not use a bareback pad with stirrups, and if you buy one with stirrups, cut them off. The pad does not have the stabilizing structure of a saddle to distribute your weight from the stirrup leathers, and will create a very small pressure point at your horse’s spine where the stirrups are stitched to the pad. The lack of structure also means that a momentary loss of balance with uneven weight in a bareback pad’s stirrups can result in the entire pad ending up under your horse’s belly. The bareback pad can provide some comfort for you, cushioning your most sensitive bits against the horse’s withers and spine, and perhaps more grip than plain horse hair, but that’s about it.

[katyb]

Treeless saddle have come a long way in recent years, and specialized pads are an important component with many treeless saddles. If you watch endurance racing, you’ll see tons of treeless saddles. Those horses are doing 50-100 miles at a time and are vet checked (with a back score) at several points. That puts the lie to the weight distribution argument.

I have a Bob Marshall, a Bandos, a Black Forest, and I’ve had a Barefoot and a Trekker. I had one horse with a round, flat back, and she did fine in a treeless with a tacky type treeless saddle pad. I have less slipping with my treeless saddles than many of my friends riding in treed saddles. The right saddle/pad/fit does still matter.

[Guilherme]

If you have to invest in “specialty” pads and all sorts of extra stuff to make this system work why not just use a properly fit treed saddle and be done with it? Shaving with Occam’s Razor is almost always a Good Idea.

G.

[tewhann]

https://www.hmsaddles.com/

[akdraft77]

I ride mild trails and play in the arena with a Barefoot Tahoe. I’m 180# and I often ride for a few hours at a time.

I have never felt insecure in this saddle nor been uncomfortable during a ride. More importantly, my horse has never shown any indication of discomfort or soreness. I ride with a quality pad that was designed specifically for use with the Barefoot saddles. You CANNOT skimp on pad quality with any treeless saddle or you will be sad you did.

What I love about the saddle is that it is incredibly lightweight and comfortable for me. It is easy to clean. I was able to outfit it with a breast collar for some added security and I bought pommel inserts so it has a better range of fitment for the horses I use it on, though I generally only use the soft insert. I am comfortable in this saddle with stirrups and without. The Newbuck leather feels grippy to me.

If I am hitting the mountains, going for an extended ride, or need to carry a lot of stuff with me, I will grab a western saddle, but for the day to day stuff, the Barefoot has been perfect for me.

I have used the barefoot on my fatty-mcfat-fat draft dross, my stocky QH, a full Belgian draft, and more recently, my WB type Trehekner/Perch cross with no shims or extra padding or problems.

I would recommend trying to find someone in your area with a treeless saddle (look for several brands) and see if you can borrow one to see what you think for yourself. There is a huge difference in quality between brands, you definitely get what you pay for, and they definitely feel different than a traditional treed saddle. Pay attention to reviews, and look into Facebook or Yahoo groups - that is where I got my info before I made the decision to buy. (My Barefoot was not cheap)

This is the one I have…
https://www.barefootsaddlesusa.com/B…e-classic-.htm

[Ajierene]

@Guilherme

I, too, have some training in loading aircraft!!!

An experiment: Find a muddy spot, and make sure it’s good and wet. Put on your rubber boots and step in the mud putting all you weight on one boot. Note the result. Now take a piece of plywood, maybe 12" x 12", and put it on top of the same spot. Put all your weight on one boot in the middle of the plywood. Note the result. That should demonstrate why a proper rigid tree is generally a good idea.

Or, to paraphrase Bugs Bunny, “The Laws of Physics apply to us all, even if we’ve never studied Law or Physics.”

G.

With respect, my experience is more than 10 years loading various military aircraft, including several deployments. I did not initially see a need to go into detail, however it is more than rudimentary.

While your experiment is not wrong in that a piece of plywood will distribute your weight better in mud, you are missing a lot of nuiances. A piece of 1" thick plywood will distribute your weight more than a 1/2" thick piece, which will do a better job than a 1/4" thick piece but it may be overkill to use a 1" where a 1/4" thick piece will distribute the weight well enough to prevent sinking into the mud. Sometimes the minimum is the best to go with when dealing with ACL or area restrictions.

A treeless saddle is not a piec of cloth, it is solid leather so it is more comparing a 1/4" thick piece of plywood to a 1" thick piece; than it is to nothing (or a cloth bareback pad).

@Guilherme

If you have to invest in “specialty” pads and all sorts of extra stuff to make this system work why not just use a properly fit treed saddle and be done with it? Shaving with Occam’s Razor is almost always a Good Idea.

G.

The cost of a treeless saddle is roughly $3600, the price of a good treed saddle. Any specialty saddle pad (really a riser you would use on top of a saddle pad) you would purchase are about $100 (and you only need one). If you are riding more than one horse with significant difference in width, it is much more cost effective and efficient to own one saddle and riser than buy more than one saddle or spend the time changing gullets out or trying to figure out where to shim for what horse and who the saddle is going to fit well and who is going to have to adjust.

If you only ride one horse or one type (say, all thoroughbreds), it may not be a solution for you. It may be a solution for someone else.

Having ridden in them, I do not find them different to ride in opposed to my treed saddles. Neither myself nor my friend had any slipping issues, either. So, if it works for you, go for it.

[Guilherme]

@Ajierene

With respect, my experience is more than 10 years loading various military aircraft, including several deployments. I did not initially see a need to go into detail, however it is more than rudimentary.

Never said or implied otherwise!

While your experiment is not wrong in that a piece of plywood will distribute your weight better in mud, you are missing a lot of nuiances. A piece of 1" thick plywood will distribute your weight more than a 1/2" thick piece, which will do a better job than a 1/4" thick piece but it may be overkill to use a 1" where a 1/4" thick piece will distribute the weight well enough to prevent sinking into the mud. Sometimes the minimum is the best to go with when dealing with ACL or area restrictions.

Indeed. The object of the exercise was to demonstrate what you note.

A treeless saddle is not a piec of cloth, it is solid leather so it is more comparing a 1/4" thick piece of plywood to a 1" thick piece; than it is to nothing (or a cloth bareback pad).

Since there are many weights of “pieces of leather” as there are many types of “pieces of cloth” I’m not sure of the point. I didn’t specify the grade of plywood, just was looking for a solid surface to demonstrate a point of Physics.

The cost of a treeless saddle is roughly $3600, the price of a good treed saddle. Any specialty saddle pad (really a riser you would use on top of a saddle pad) you would purchase are about $100 (and you only need one). If you are riding more than one horse with significant difference in width, it is much more cost effective and efficient to own one saddle and riser than buy more than one saddle or spend the time changing gullets out or trying to figure out where to shim for what horse and who the saddle is going to fit well and who is going to have to adjust.

My good, treed Stubben Scout was $2200 when I bought it and today it runs about $2800. There are any number of good reproduction military saddles that can be had for under $2000. Originals run more or less, depending. Derivatives, like those Tucker makes an excellent line of saddles (some of which are based upon the British UP military saddle, in use since 1790) for under $2000. Or you can drop really big bucks with any number of custom makers. Indeed, if you can get a saddle where “one size fits all” you have an accomplishment. But I’m skeptical that you can.

If you only ride one horse or one type (say, all thoroughbreds), it may not be a solution for you. It may be a solution for someone else.

Having ridden in them, I do not find them different to ride in opposed to my treed saddles. Neither myself nor my friend had any slipping issues, either. So, if it works for you, go for it.

The longest word in the English language is “if.”

I’ll still stand with Bugs’ observation.

G.

[Alittledownhill]

I don’t know much about treeless saddles, but I spent a lot of time this (insanely hot) summer riding on a Thinline bareback pad. It was certainly a different experience than riding totally bareback, which was uncomfortable on my horse to say the least. The pad was soooo comfortable. I I think my horse was thrilled to escape the heat of a saddle. It didn’t seem to make him uncomfortable at all. He was perky, smooth and flexible in it, and did not develop any back soreness.

It was also awesome for my riding. I always sort of eye rolled when people talked about the mystical bonding experience of riding without a saddle, but I kind of get it now. You really develop a feel for how the horse moves and how to move with it, so my sitting trot got way better. It also makes your legs stronger, particularly if you post without stirrups (as has been mentioned, never get one with stirrups for safety reasons.)
I count it as one of the best horse related purchases I ever made.

[anon6923113]

I rode in my Mom’s Ansur about 15 years ago. She had a nice warmblood mare, who was extra wide and a bit mutton withered… and my Mom had health issues that made lifting a regular saddle in order to tack up challenging.

Anyway - the Ansur she had at the time was for dressage, and top of the line back then. The mare was beautifully schooled, and really easy to ride and sit on for all theee gaits. A lovely horse, but not the sort that had extravagant movement. Collection came easy to this horse, and she was never on her forehand. Great mare.

Personally… I hated the saddle. I rode the same horse in a friend’s wide tree dressage saddle (that didn’t even fit me well)… it was night and day more comfortable, and the horse went soooo much better. I found I just could not sit correctly in the Ansur. It was flat in a weird way. I grew up riding in flat little close contact saddles… so it wasn’t a matter of being used to really structured dressage saddles. It was the Ansur. I actually eventually started riding the same mare in a wide tree jumping saddle whenever I worked her for my Mom because it was STILL preferable to the Ansur. Even for dressage.

Maybe their design has improved in the last few years… maybe it was just me who hated the way it felt… I don’t know. But definitely try one before you invest in one. They aren’t for everybody.

[gypsymare]

One of the Freeform folks split off to create Freemax which are nearly identical, and cheaper than most bareback pads. I had a Freeform saddle. Freeform saddles are a molded high density foam with an aluminum gullet plate. Super comfy. My paint mare has never been so happy in a saddle, particularly moving downhill at a trot. They distribute a lot of force but flex to move with the back. There’s a separate padded seat on top of the base saddle that sits on a channel pad. Endurance riders typically ride with a longer leg, posting off their inner thighs. My thighs and butt combined have more surface area than my jumping saddle’s little tree. As for needing a special pad, that’s nothing unusual. Hello Thinline, Ogilvy, Mattes, Ecogold, etc, etc…

This style of saddle would not work for my shark finned, ultra narrow TB. He would carry all of the weight on his spine and be sore.

[Ajierene]

@Guilherme

The longest word in the English language is “if.”

I’ll still stand with Bugs’ observation.

G.

So we are in agreement, treeless saddles have weight distribution properties (per Bugs’ observation…) and one treeless saddle costs less than 2 (or more) treed saddles, even at the price of $2200/saddle. If it works for the individual, then go for it. Just like that Stubben works for you (but may not for me) so continue using your Stubben.

[tabula_rashah]

I am a big fan of treeless and I have ridden in several including Black Forest, Barefoot, Freeform, Ghost and Bob Marshall. I have put many, many hours and miles in them in both competition (endurance, CTR and CMO) and in pleasure riding. I have never had a back score of less than an A in competition and I am a heavy weight (200 lbs+) rider. Most recently the Bob Marshall sport saddle has been a godsend for my Arab gelding. I tried no less than 8 treed saddles on him (he is short backed and I was going with treed to be able to find a shorter paneled saddle), one of which was custom and all of which were fitted. All of them made him sore (and is definitely not the stoic guy lol). Four months in the Bob Marshall fitted properly with the appropriate padding and now zero back soreness (yay!).

I would caution though while treeless may fit a wider variety of horses than a treed saddle, they still need to be fitted correctly and padded correctly. Saying that a treeless is inherently flawed because it needs appropriate padding is fairly ridiculous. Are hiking boots flawed because even professionally fitted you need socks with them? A good treeless will also not generally save you any money vrs treed. They are pricey and so are the pads. I also always ride treeless saddles with caged stirrups as they have no release on the leathers.

[Guilherme]

@Ajierene

So we are in agreement, treeless saddles have weight distribution properties (per Bugs’ observation…) and one treeless saddle costs less than 2 (or more) treed saddles, even at the price of $2200/saddle. If it works for the individual, then go for it. Just like that Stubben works for you (but may not for me) so continue using your Stubben.

No, it’s the weight distribution capability that is in very possibly NOT in conformity with the Law of Physics. That’s the Oscar Wining Rabbit’s observation. My math doesn’t agree with yours (using the Tucker prices) but that’s a side issue. The central issue is the ability of the saddle to effectively distribute weight. I’'ve yet to see any advocate give me anything but anecdote on the issue. Even when at one agrees that my demo with the mud was “not wrong.”

I’m not going to convince the dedicated “treeless” person that they have a problem. I am, I hope, suggesting to those who would walk this road that it that there are pitfalls here that are fundamental and that they should walk this road with great care. Neither more nor less.

G.

[anon68314200]

@Guilherme

My knowledge of weight distribution from my training on loading planes is that the act of having a saddle, treed or not, in itself distributes the weight. It is not the same as bareback, or even a cloth bareback pad.

I, too, have some training in loading aircraft!!!

An experiment: Find a muddy spot, and make sure it’s good and wet. Put on your rubber boots and step in the mud putting all you weight on one boot. Note the result. Now take a piece of plywood, maybe 12" x 12", and put it on top of the same spot. Put all your weight on one boot in the middle of the plywood. Note the result. That should demonstrate why a proper rigid tree is generally a good idea.

Or, to paraphrase Bugs Bunny, “The Laws of Physics apply to us all, even if we’ve never studied Law or Physics.”

G.

Proper body usage means you manufacture the “board”. Within your own body. The rider uses their body to create the platform.

[anon68314200]

@Guilherme

If you have to invest in “specialty” pads and all sorts of extra stuff to make this system work why not just use a properly fit treed saddle and be done with it? Shaving with Occam’s Razor is almost always a Good Idea.

G.

I ride many different horses. I have both the older Ansur and newer with ‘panels.’ I also know plenty of “well fitted” treed saddles that we’re declare to NOT fit within a short time. Including saddles that cost upwards of four and $5000. I consider that quite an investment for saddle that doesn’t fit two or three months later. Or two or three weeks later.