Trend in Horses Ridden by Pros

[judybigredpony]

Emily…You are So Off Base…Let me see the ship sailed on the bigger prices for OTTB’s(putting them in line with other breeds for awhile) we used to get like 2 years ago…and the horses I have sold w/ appropriate price tags have proven them selves in the 3*-Advanced levels…Thats Not the discussion…The discussion you started is that its easier to buy a UL eventing prospect abroad.(.yours are jumpers BTW.)…than it is to find one here in the USA…Ireland is an Island you can traverse it coast to coast in a few hours…You Do need an intro to get into a Top Yard and not get shown the stuff they want to fob off on those w/ a big wallet and no sense. It is still hard Even with an intro to find a real top prospect because they make plenty selling the lower tier horses to us. As BFNE said we Do have the same pedigrees here (think Frozen Semen) and certain times of year they do seem to be concentrated from Aiken to Ocala or in the Area 2 corridor. What we lack are Investors who will buy a non Import regardless of the price and invest the time and money to actually train and educate the horse. BFNE is also correct that the better young finds Here will beheld back and run thru the levels and then sold for far more…BTW Em just as a course direction…No It competed anything I got a new knee Recently that I have put off far far to long and will be getting #2…BUT I still have a nice clientele who buy my UL prospects off market unadvertised and they finish them up the levels and resell where the bigger $$ are. I have several very well bred young Stallions we have in training and an eye on a slightly different plan…

Enjoytheride…Eventing buying overseas is only following the H/J an Dressage Industry…It wasn t so long ago Most eventers were dead broke armatures with no Investors or sponsorship. But it has quickly caught up in terms of sponsorship and Investors. They have to follow where the money is and no one can fault them for that.

[bornfreenowexpensive]

@enjoytheride

I feel like this BB is unique with placing a negative stigma on riders who fly to Ireland to source an event horse.

I would think if the same horses were readily available for the same prices in the US people would buy them. I know a few other people who went straight to Ireland to purchase their eventers, and they certainly had the connections to shop local if they could have. While the horses they brought back were far greener than they looked, they are already levels above purchasing an OTTB, breeding your own, or hunting the country for something. There’s a reason trainers are sourcing Ireland. It would be easier and cheaper if they could source horses locally, so it must not be as easy as people claim it to be.

Not really. Those same people DO source in the US too. But it is all about who you know…as it always has been. Of course you can do it without an agent, just as you can here…but it takes leg work that not all buyers want to do. And same with really top prospects…proven horses. They do not sell off adds. They get sold by word off mouth often to a friend of the rider. There are top horses here in the US…and NOT just OTTBs. And yes you can buy abroad.

But the real issue is that too many US pros are looking for a quick fix. They are trying to buy a fancy mover to win the dressage rather than focus on their own riding and training skills…or the jumper that is going to be too careful and hard on themselves to stay sound Eventing. Or realizing that winner at the 1-3* level dressage was not going to go 5*. Having no clue what a good xc gallop is (for a horse to make time and stay sound). Too many rush horses up the levels and feel if they are not going Advanced by 8 it isn’t a good horse. It really isn’t an issue of where they are shopping…but what they are buying. And it is why we are not competitive…wrong focus.

[JER]

If you’re looking for a young horse who does NOT have ‘massive holes’ in its training, one thing you have to realize is that the no-holes horse will be far less further along in terms of its competitive resume.

If a horse is designated ‘Fernhill’ or ‘Cooley’ and pushed to sell (which is their business), then it’s simply unrealistic of the buyer to expect that it was brought along with the goal of having no holes in its training.

Bringing a horse along correctly with no ‘holes’ takes time. It involves taking breaks when necessary and taking the psychological/emotional development of the horse into consideration. But people want to buy in a 4 or 5 YO what they should only reasonably expect from a 6 or 7YO.

[headbrickwall]

@JER

If you’re looking for a young horse who does NOT have ‘massive holes’ in its training, one thing you have to realize is that the no-holes horse will be far less further along in terms of its competitive resume.

If a horse is designated ‘Fernhill’ or ‘Cooley’ and pushed to sell (which is their business), then it’s simply unrealistic of the buyer to expect that it was brought along with the goal of having no holes in its training.

Bringing a horse along correctly with no ‘holes’ takes time. It involves taking breaks when necessary and taking the psychological/emotional development of the horse into consideration. But people want to buy in a 4 or 5 YO what they should only reasonably expect from a 6 or 7YO.

JER you have completely hit the nail on the head.
Im UK based and see the sorts of horses Americans want to buy. They are produced quickly to look fancy, because that is what the market wants. It’s wrong.
Prime example, I know of a just backed rising 5yo that a decent young horse rider here things is an advanced horse. Shown to an American agent and it’s too green and weak.

Its 12k.

Yet they will happily spend 30k on something a year older that’s physically stronger yet will max out at Intermediate

[EventerAJ]

Great thoughts. Part of the trend to rush horses along is because a talented horse ($$) can overcome those holes up to a certain point, with a good enough rider. A horse with 4* talent can move up quickly because lower levels are easy…but training/education is sacrificed with speed and the lack of strong foundation will catch up at some point. Buyers assume a horse has a level of training to match his level of competition/performance…but in a hustled sales horse that isn’t the case.

Talent will always be expensive, and experience more so. It’s easier to see talent in a “going” horse and thus command more money, so that’s where sellers are always going to push to maximize profit. Caveat emptor.

[bornfreenowexpensive]

@EventerAJ

Great thoughts. Part of the trend to rush horses along is because a talented horse ($$) can overcome those holes up to a certain point, with a good enough rider. A horse with 4* talent can move up quickly because lower levels are easy…but training/education is sacrificed with speed and the lack of strong foundation will catch up at some point. Buyers assume a horse has a level of training to match his level of competition/performance…but in a hustled sales horse that isn’t the case.

Talent will always be expensive, and experience more so. It’s easier to see talent in a “going” horse and thus command more money, so that’s where sellers are always going to push to maximize profit. Caveat emptor.

Exactly…and just because a young horse can…doesn’t mean you should.

[jonem004]

@bornfreenowexpensive

and you want to talk about holes in training. MOST Irish imports that I’ve know who have competed (even running a 1 or 2*) had MASSIVE holes in their training. Don’t underestimate how strong some of those young horse riders are in Ireland, UK and Europe…often they are riding and competing semi feral horses that they then sell to the Americans.

LOL!!!
I’m really curious to see how the perception of Irish horses changes over the next couple of decades as breeding programs over there move away from the traditional native/thoroughbred crosses toward continental warmbloods. The ID and Connemara crosses bring a temperament that I just haven’t seen in warmbloods at the big barns where I’ve worked. I’d venture to say that the old breeds lend themselves better to the Irish style of “training”. I’m sure there are some fantastic young horse development programs on that island, but there’s a surprisingly cowboy-ish culture surrounding horses there. I wonder how these new Irish horses will hold up.

[JER]

I want to clarify that I don’t fault the sales model. That’s their business and what you’re seeing in their young horses is a snapshot of their potential. That’s how you sell. But you do have to understand where the horse training ends and the selling tool begins.

The problem is that someone buys a young horse for their ambitious young rider and then you see the effects of having a horse and rider with holes in their educations. It’s the expectations that are off there - you just can’t expect that young horse to be something it’s not. And ‘something it’s not’ - yet, anyway - is that horse you saw jumping 1m XC fences and 1.10m showjumps in the video.

So what does the young horse with no holes look like at that same age? Not much, really. You’d be hard-pressed to find something to put on the video. Maybe one nice trot down the long side. Or a free jump or two. Or some hacking down the road with friends. In other words, nothing that screams ‘Buy me! I am your future Badminton horse!’.

Of course, if you really do know what you’re looking for and you really do know how to bring a horse along, you’ll see everything thing you need to see in that most unimpressive no-holes horse video.

[GraceLikeRain]

@bornfreenowexpensive

Not really. Those same people DO source in the US too. But it is all about who you know…as it always has been. Of course you can do it without an agent, just as you can here…but it takes leg work that not all buyers want to do. And same with really top prospects…proven horses. They do not sell off adds. They get sold by word off mouth often to a friend of the rider. There are top horses here in the US…and NOT just OTTBs. And yes you can buy abroad.

I think you unintentionally hit on an interesting contradiction that exists in this conversation.

On one hand is the belief that if a buyer wants to source a top horse in the US they just need to invest time and effort into proper networking.

On the other hand is the fact that many top prospects are sold by word of mouth to other pros or to personal friends rather than through ads.

So, if you are a decent rider with decent pockets interested in a true UL prospect, you could invest substantial effort into networking and trying to find a US horse only to find that most barns you contact will already have horses dog-eared to go to another barn or rider. Or, the horse could be available but the trainer doesn’t want the horse to go into that specific program.

If you are a talented rider not in a well-known program, are you going to be able to source these top US horses? If not, can we blame that rider for going overseas where there is a more level playing field?

In a tangential discipline, dressage, I see this dynamic play out. True FEI prospects are bought and sold via word of mouth and into select programs or by deep connections. A friend is shopping with a small but competent “no name” trainer. This rider has searched a year for a FEI prospect on a $50k budget. Everything offered to her has been bottom barrel types or undisclosed PPE findings that are very significant.

I told her to reach out to X because I know they have horse A, B, C. I’m a no name but happen to know X because they were a someone. The prospective buyer hears back that they only have horses D, E, F available. I follow up with X and they say they aren’t sending one of their top horses into a program unless there is a large chance they will be successfully developed to FEI. While I understand the feeling, especially given their emotional investment in these horses, how can someone who has financial means but not the big trainer stamp of approval ever going to find the talent available in the US?

[enjoytheride]

I think that’s a great point.

We want people to stay in the US but we have a hard to navigate system that produces fewer,less experienced horses for a higher price.

We also have a stigma that you must start from scratch because that’s a real rider, yet we wonder why our pro riders aren’t competitive. As for our ammy riders, they might not have the time to buy a fresh OTTB every time they go shopping and work their way up the levels.

I think if we had comparable horses in the US for the same price that were easy to find people wouldn’t go to Ireland.

[Jealoushe]

@GraceLikeRain

I think you unintentionally hit on an interesting contradiction that exists in this conversation.

On one hand is the belief that if a buyer wants to source a top horse in the US they just need to invest time and effort into proper networking.

On the other hand is the fact that many top prospects are sold by word of mouth to other pros or to personal friends rather than through ads.

So, if you are a decent rider with decent pockets interested in a true UL prospect, you could invest substantial effort into networking and trying to find a US horse only to find that most barns you contact will already have horses dog-eared to go to another barn or rider. Or, the horse could be available but the trainer doesn’t want the horse to go into that specific program.

If you are a talented rider not in a well-known program, are you going to be able to source these top US horses? If not, can we blame that rider for going overseas where there is a more level playing field?

In a tangential discipline, dressage, I see this dynamic play out. True FEI prospects are bought and sold via word of mouth and into select programs or by deep connections. A friend is shopping with a small but competent “no name” trainer. This rider has searched a year for a FEI prospect on a $50k budget. Everything offered to her has been bottom barrel types or undisclosed PPE findings that are very significant.

I told her to reach out to X because I know they have horse A, B, C. I’m a no name but happen to know X because they were a someone. The prospective buyer hears back that they only have horses D, E, F available. I follow up with X and they say they aren’t sending one of their top horses into a program unless there is a large chance they will be successfully developed to FEI. While I understand the feeling, especially given their emotional investment in these horses, how can someone who has financial means but not the big trainer stamp of approval ever going to find the talent available in the US?

This is an interesting point. Having listened to all the Major League Eventing podcast interviews with big riders, many of them do get their UL horses in the fashion of “So and so said they had a horse for me/has a horse the style I like”. So I do think word of mouth plays a massive role between UL riders finding horses.

[bornfreenowexpensive]

Except eventing in the US is VERY small. Everyone knows everyone. Networking isn’t hard at all. Finding out who the breeders are…isn’t really hard either. If you are actually a decent rider…and have a deeper pocket…it is NOT hard to find the horses. What is hard is really knowing what you want and need. In eventing…it is NOT finding a prospect that is the hard part. A LOT of horses have the talent…it is MANAGING those horses, keeping them sound…and Training those horses (keeping them confident) that is hard. People just like to blame it on the quality of the horses…when the real issue is their own training, riding and management (and I’m included in the struggle…its really hard and horses are heartbreakers).

[Xanthoria]

@GraceLikeRain hit the nail on the head for me. I’m an AA who clinics with good trainers, but like many a Brits I DIY - I don’t board with a trainer with those connections because the cost is prohibitive for me, and with a lifetime of PC qualifications under my belt I don’t need someone managing my horse life.

So with a decent budget I look at the ads and see nothing but $40-50k novice level horses clear across the country and think well - just stay on the plane a few more hours and see dozens more horses. Many of them produced and competed by ammies like me, already with a few Prelims under their girth.

How many tens of thousands would I need to spend to be in a program with the type of trainer I’d need to get those word of mouth horses? And what makes anyone think those horses are cheaper than the (to me) overpriced $40-50k Novice horse?

(I don’t want to go Advanced. I just want a clear shot at P. A T horse with potential OK. But a baby who is more likely to get hurt than go BN or a worn out A or I horse with a year or two left is all I see. I’ve bought both those horses before. It broke my heart, and my bank account.)

[bornfreenowexpensive]

Xanthria…I just saw a LOVELY moving TB, scores in the low 20s, has gone BN but with a clear jump to go much further and higher. 6 years old. Hasn’t done as much as rider hasn’t focused on him (rider has a non-horse world job and has and 2 UL horses already). I told her to keep him as he screams Advanced horse to me…but he is also very marketable so that unfortunately means sell…as she, like many of us, cannot keep them all. Only “negative” I saw was that he is smaller in size (16H) but honestly…I consider that a good thing. I have a barn full of monster sized ones and they are harder to keep sound!

This was just by being at a clinic/lessons…and seeing a horse that I liked and impressed me…and talking to the rider. This horse wasn’t even on the market (no ads)…but rider would sell. That is networking… And this horse likely will sell with no ad ever as the rider and people like me will tell who we know are looking…and the rider wants to make sure he gets in good hands/good home…would likely rather he go to an AA than some pro program. This horse and his type are not rare…and you just have to ask. Hell…I’ve had a few pros reach out to me about a horse I had from seeing me post a video on FB (not sales)…others talked to me in warm up at an event. That is what you do…or if the one isn’t for sale, you ask who did they get them from. It isn’t networking by having to be with a BNT…it is being a nice person and then talking to your fellow riders. MOST of us are DIY eventers…at least that is the case around here…I’m guess it must be different where you are located.

[gottagrey]

@Equisis

Slightly off subject but it’s worth noting that for some of these farms (Fernhill in particular) they are not necessarily breeding these animals. Any horse that passes through the program gets stamped with the Fernhill name. There have been some cases of a North American horse winding up in Europe, then eventually getting sold back to the US with a Fernhill name :lol:

So true, I met a worman, breeder, at Badminton last year who had some “Fernhill” horses running that she bred but weren’t under her but were sold to Fernhill; same thing with a friend in Ireland - had some youngsters he brought along some, ended up at Fernhill and stamped Fernhill whatever.

happens a lot. A lot of times they’ll either keep the stud’s name and/or the farm/facility where the horse is sold from/thru.

[luvmyhackney]

Not sure about eventing horse auctions but in the ASB world we have pretty decent auctions where you can go see 20-30 horses in two days fairly easy. Usually one in the spring and fall or a farm dispersal.

[asterix]

I’m going to agree with BFNE on networking as an amateur. She is MUCH more connected and accomplished than I am… but I know her 😉. And I know Courtney Cooper. And I know a bunch of other folks ranging from ammies in training with other pros to sellers and trainers from my MANY adventures buying horses (not just mine, but 2 hunt horses for my hubby - so now I know a bunch of fox hunting connections). It is LOCATION in my case - heart of area ii. It’s completely normal for a regular ammie to have connections like this.
Last horse I bought, like everyone is saying, not advertised. However, my “fancy” connection was a guy who brings along draft crosses for fox hunting. I’ve now had 3 horses this guy has started. All sound, athletic, well started. The vet I used for my guy asked if he had come from these folks, as they have a type - and he meant it as a compliment.
I contacted them, and they sent me to a local trainer who had one of theirs that was too hot to hunt (still is 😝) that they thought was my type. Trainer was about to advertise him. I was the first person to ride him.
He is prodigiously talented although not uncomplicated. Would certainly have gone up the levels with a pro. I’m doing mostly dressage with him at the moment and my FEI coach has said for some time that he can be an FEI dressage horse if I wanted to really focus on it (not sure I have the talent, and I definitely don’t have the time).

This board itself IS a networking tool. If you want to come to our neck of the woods and see a bunch of horses in a short amount of time, folks here can help.

[bornfreenowexpensive]

Yeah…just got back from Aiken. In ONE afternoon…we saw 8 horses at 3 different farms (sat on 5). I had only arranged to go to 2 farms and 4 horses. Honestly ALL the horses I saw could go Prelim but was helping a beginner shop for their horse…we are vetting one…and the one being vetted wasn’t advertised for sale (nor was one that I knew about beforehand). Horse only came up for sale when owner met the family and thought he was a good fit…networking isn’t hard. Our community is small and unlike other locations…sellers generally do help each other out and are quick to say…if this one doesn’t suit my friend has two others…here is her number.