Trouble with a Chestnut Mare

[Celeritas]

My friend has a horse that is very much like your mare. In his case, he was overfaced/brain-fried at a young age and decided he did. not. want. to. play. anymore. He’s been through countless trainers but he has been this way for over 20 years so it’s not going to change: some days, he is happy to jump and will march right around and be champion. Other days he will spin and dump you at the in-gate. He has some venues he hates, others he loves. One small distraction will shut him down and you won’t get him back. He does not easily forgive mistakes and will hold a grudge. However, he is perfect on the ground and on the flat, and is usually pretty happy to jump at home as long as it’s within his comfort zone and he doesn’t get pushed or drilled. Basically, jumping has to be his idea so you go with it when he’s in the mood, and don’t bother trying when he’s not.

When he was younger and my friend was still showing him, she had to be happy with whatever horse stepped out of the trailer that day. If he didn’t want to play, she’d just scratch and would pull her other horse out instead. If this horse had gone to anyone else, he would have been passed around 10 times by now and probably would have ended up in a bad situation (or worse), but lucky for him my friend doesn’t sell horses and she was able to buy a second (much more reliable) horse.

So, if you’ve ruled out pain/physical issues, and it seems your mare simply just doesn’t want to jump, I think you need to listen to your horse and let her do what she wants to do. Pushing her isn’t going to help, it’s only going to end in injury or heartbreak. If she wants to do dressage, great. If she wants to be a broodmare, great. Sometimes horses are who they are and they’re not going to change and you have to either accept their limitations/quirks and work within those parameters, or decided to move on and find her a situation where she will be happy.

Best of luck.

[MCF1991]

I know someone who spayed a horse. Mare was definitely not a riding horse which we could tell from the very beginning. Just very quirky and by far the weirdest horse I ever met. We had a foal out of her who has a tad of the quark, but is one of the best foals we have ever had. A lot of this I contribute to the stallion as his foals are known for being saints which my mare is. Anyway, the woman who owned the mare decided to spay her and try to ride her. Mare was maybe 10-12. Totally not a good idea which we told her knowing the mares history, but long story short, spay did NOT work and now the mare can’t produce anymore saintly babies. Such a waste I hate to think of where she might have ended up.

[phippsie62]

I have to chime in here to second what’s been said about equine body work, a term I prefer to “massage,” which sounds like a spa-day treat with pink hoof polish at the end. It isn’t. Competently done, body work can make an enormous difference in the comfort, suppleness, and over all performance of equine athletes. They work hard, there are bound to be stresses on their bodies, and they can’t undo the knotted muscle fibers, or the tension and soreness, by themselves. If you’ve ever watched a horse getting good body work, you’ll see one grateful critter–the yawning, the big breath releases. It’s like “Oh thank god!”

[findeight]

Few things here,

1. Is this a horse or a Pony?

2. Did your vet take x rays and pull blood to test for Lyme or other conditions? Did you get any kind of PPE when you bought her?

3. Did any of the top trainers who had her and failed to improve her suggest a career change instead of continuing? It’s possible the trainer who sold her to you drugged was not completely truthful about her. Or flat out lied.

4. Forgive me for being blunt here, this is not personal. It’s great her foal placed in Medium Greens at PF but one modestly successful foal does not make her a proven broodmare. That’s a comparatively small class, not difficult to qualify for and riders may be up to 18 years old and what they call “Mini Pros”. All three phases are separately pinned to 10th plus another 10 ribbons for overall, was the ribbon for that individual phases or overall? Overall would be substantially more influential.

Has that Pony continued into the Regulars in much larger classes ridden by a rider under 14? If it has, it would count for much more on her resume as a producer. If not, her baby has little market value as a show Pony. It’s very, very difficult to sell Meduim Ponies without a substantial show record in the Regulars ridden by non mini Pros, there’s tons of them sitting on the market with ribbons in the Greens at PF but nothing in the Regulars. Many of them just disappear after they break their Green status, no idea what happens to them, just never see or hear of them again.

Not a reason to produce another one to join the crowd unless you spend substantially on a good Welsh stud with winners on the ground and height is still a crap shoot. As it would be if you breed to a horse stud if your mare is smaller. Size does matter if you want to breed for a Show Hunter at the Rated level. And I would have questions about attitude and soundness that might pass on not answered by that single Pony foal. How many other foals has she had?

Oh…and when are you considering her as " ready to breed"? She’s 11, been barren for…what? 6-7 years? If you insist, wouldn’t wait too many more years. Can be hard on mid teen mares with no foals for many years to catch and then carry to term, can take several covers/straws over several cycles. She’s probably fine now, she’d be foaling at 13 if you bred her next season, and for the next couple of years but…time marches on.

[Jealoushe]

The only thing people have not mentioned is the riding/training you are giving her. Do you have any photos or better yet video of you working her?

A lot of the time, a horse can quiet down when it is ridden by someone who understands that type of horse. Perhaps there is something you are doing when approaching the jumps. Getting tense, dropping her, the possibilities are endless. It is hard to offer advice on the riding part without seeing what is happening.

I don’t believe horses are bad for no reason. She is either in pain, doesn’t understand, or there is something going on with the way she is being ridden.

[ponyjumper525]

I had a similar problem with a young horse I bought. She wasn’t drugged when I tried her, but she just ended up being too much to handle. She could jump the moon, but was mentally unfit to do so… so whats the point if you have all that talent? I kept her for a year and went from the 1.10m classes to not getting around the 0.85m classes. Finally I was lucky enough to be able to trade her for another horse from the guy that sold her to me. I am now consistently placing in the 1.15m.

I had a tough time deciding to trade and I spoke to many people for advice. Here’s what it came down to:

1. You pay way too much money and invest way too much time into this sport to not enjoy it/have fun. I have been riding since I was 5 years old and was dreading showing/riding the old horse.
2. She wasn’t safe.
3. Who cares about what their potential is when you cannot handle them?
4. It was unfair to her for me to keep her when we were literally going downhill.

Looking back, I loved her very much and she’ll always have a special place in my heart (I had been riding for 16 years before I got my own horse and she was my first horse) and she taught me a lot; however, I am SO happy I traded her. I realize that might not be an option, but my boyfriend and mom tell me that they never used to see me beaming after lessons as much as I do now. All in all, trading her was SO worth it and I love my new horse very much!

[findeight]

@Mare Crazed

This mare is tricky because she has learned the behavior of estrus. Whether she is truly in estrus or not, she will act it when off property. I have her on Perfect Prep Training Day, and it helps keep her a little more focused. We tried Depo but that was to no avail. I am hesitant with Regumate because it can cause infertility, but I have considered it. I talked with my vet about it and she said that because it is a learned behavior, Regulate, while it will help, will not completely take the mare-ish behavior away unfortunately.

ummm…missed this. Estrus is NOT learned behavior, it is a temporary change in hormonal levels prior to ovulation in horses that can make the mare receptive to a stud but behave erratically and be cranky . Because it’s temporary mares can’t adjust to it so it can change their behavior for a day or so. Perhaps you misunderstood your vet, bad manners overall are very much learned behavior, Estrus and hormonal fluctuations are no more learned then your own PMS or cramps which occur at a different point in your cycle then mares but can make you just as cranky. But we humans know what’s going on and learn to deal, mares don’t and just react to their hormones.

Perhaps the vet was referring to overall learned bad manners that Estrus aggravates, nothing will solve underlying behavioral problems this mare likely had installed before you ever bought her. That is a training problem but with training that happened long ago and might not be reversible. Foal will observe its mothers manners and learn how to behave from those observations, no matter who the mare learned them from, humans or from her own mothers behavior, she may have always been difficult.

. A tendency to be difficult may not be genetic but the foal gets it from its mother so they can pass along. Old saying “Show me a cranky, difficult horse, I’ll show you it’s cranky, difficult mother”. Lots of truth there. First impressions in a newborn and very young minds are more important then we used to think and apparently can influence future behavior…

Good training can overcome that but the tendency to push it as far as they can will always be there. It’s their learned nature. Wonder if this mare was bred at an early age instead of put to regular work because she wanted to be difficult? Wonder what her mother was like? Wonder what her Pony baby is like, good show performance doesn’t mean they aren’t difficult, that goes double for Ponies.

Not trying to pick on you here, trying to help you out. I was in a barn with a huge Pony presence on the AA level from the mid 90s until recently. Know a lot of Ponies who went to PF and I still go down to watch every year. If you tell us that Pony’s show name, maybe I or somebody else will know it, you can PM to ask if you want, I’ll answer with PM only to keep it private. Really nothing to lose 50-50 it’s a very good Pony and might suggest it’s not a mistake to breed the mare. If not, you need to know. Helps to know exactly how well that Pony placed and who it gets at PF too, help you prove the claim.

[CHT]

It is my understanding that mares can come into a sort of Estrus in order to fit in to a new herd. It is possible your pony is so nervous at shows around other horses, that this is what is happening?

I would not be against breeding her as an option, but if finances are a concern this would seem a complicated choice. breeding can get expensive easily, and even if it goes well, you would then have three horses, which I thought you couldn’t afford.

Alternatively, if you want to keep working at it, check out “Equitation Science”. it is not an easy read as it covers the science behind behaviour and training, but it might give you some insights.