Troublesome behavior

Well, you know, that’s a double edged sword. I certainly agree that pain is the most frequent cause of misbehavior. But- even if it’s the cause- the horse has to be schooled as to acceptable reactions. So yeah, if they buck due to pain, you get after them for bucking, anyway. And look carefully for the problem so you can come up with a solution.

To try to put it in context- flight is a horse’s first instinctive reaction to a fear stimulus. A big part of our training is to squash that reaction. Bolting is unacceptable, horse, even if you are afraid. So it is also with reaction to pain/discomfort.

Another thing to keep in mind is that, when a horse has learned an evasive behavior in reaction to pain- sometimes it will find other ways to ‘use’ that new skill (most frequently, bucking)- even after the pain issue has been resolved. Particularly if the bucking successfully unseats or intimidates the rider.

Following on Equibrit’s post to which you took exception- one of my good hunters once, seemingly inexplicably, slammed on the brakes at a coop while I was whipping in. I put him at the fence a second time, with a whack of the whip for good measure, and over we went, with no further incidents the rest of the day despite lots of galloping and jumping. Sure enough that night, after returning to the barn, he showed a tiny bit of soreness in a stifle- probably the source of discomfort that caused him to quit at the fence. Of course I felt bad about that. But the horse sure didn’t hold it against me.

I agree, Beverly.
A few thoughts:
I think one thing eventers might not realize is that the horse has to learn to go in a group. They spend a lot of time training and since their horse can event, well, hunting should be easy, right? Hunters actually need a lot of time getting used to behaving while running flat out with 60 other horses. It can take a while. They also have to learn to run then stand with 60 other horses.
I don’t accept that my horse prefers to be up front. He has to hunt wherever I put him. They also have to learn to go quietly over obstacles, like crossings and walk-through ditches, not leap over and race to catch up. Just a change from eventing. All these things are as important to me as 20 meter circles are to an eventer.
I also have a beef when I take lessons that my instructor thinks that whenever I hack, the horse needs to be micro-ridden - on the bit, slower trot and faster trot, etc. All nice, but he needs to go quietly on the buckle or get his own rhythm and find his way without me messing with him constantly.
fwiw

OK - (assuming that your horse has no pain; if he has you shouldn’t be riding) Explain to me how you would make clear to a horse, who is fit and on the muscle, that he cannot disobey and buck/kick/generally misbehave in a large group of horses, who are galloping, or when you have to chase after a pack of hounds and knock them of a line before they reach the freeway. Sometimes there just has to be a price for misbehaviour and then the mere threat will suffice. Occasionally your life may depend on it.

[QUOTE=Equibrit;4550508]
OK - (assuming that your horse has no pain; if he has you shouldn’t be riding) Explain to me how you would make clear to a horse, who is fit and on the muscle, that he cannot disobey and buck/kick/generally misbehave in a large group of horses, who are galloping, or when you have to chase after a pack of hounds and knock them of a line before they reach the freeway. Sometimes there just has to be a price for misbehaviour and then the mere threat will suffice. Occasionally your life may depend on it.[/QUOTE]

Right - I agree with you on that one completely. However, that’s not what you said first time around.

I think Beverly proved my point, don’t you: she admonished a horse who seemed to be being pigheaded, when it eventually turned out he was probably in some pain.

Whether they hold grudges or not, who knows -

I wasn’t proving your point. To the contrary, I was trying to explain to you that even if pain is the cause of the misbehavior, the misbehavior has to be corrected.

If you don’t know whether your horse holds a grudge- or in general what its relationship is with you, including level of trust or mistrust, then I’d suggest you pay more attention to the horse- they do speak volumes if you’re listening. And being thwacked for misbehavior that later turns out to have been motivated by pain or discomfort does not, in my experience, bother or harm a horse in the least.

I don’t think they hold grudges - but I sure as heck feel awful about it. Catholic guilt, I suppose. :wink:

On the contrary my dear - your imagination got the better of you.

[QUOTE=Equibrit;4551042]
On the contrary my dear - your imagination got the better of you.[/QUOTE]

:eek: :lol:

Well some of you may remember that I asked your (collective) opinion on what to do with a young 4yr old who was perfectly suited to the hunt field in every way, accept that he had a buck/kick problem. He wasn’t a kicker perse, but he would buck and kick out.

I looked for pain, changed his diet, had the vet and farrier all look for reasons, etc etc etc. Well all he needed was a thorough laying into and he was fine! He has only been out hunting a few times since I pulled him from the field, and each time he has bucked while starting out on a run, each time I whipped him repeatedly, he stoped, I praised him, and we moved on. He started to get the feeling, I growled at him, he didn’t buck, I praised him, he is now hunting like a good boy again. I can’t trust him not to buck again, but at least I know now that if I feel it coming and get after him, he DOES know that it is not acceptable, but sometimes it is just too tempting for him and he bucks anyway, even though he knows he’ll get smacked. Now I’m smacking him with a jumping bat, so even though I’m really hitting him, it never leaves a mark. Had I smacked this horse the first time he bucked, I probably would have solved the issue before it escalated and I withdrew him from hunting for a few months to resolve it. Hindsight is every so clear on these things!

Now its never just that simple, I did address the issue at home in many ways and did a lot of training and prep before returning to the field, but I could not have resolved the issue without taking a firm hand to him. He needed a punishment for a behaviour that was not acceptable. Perhaps it was feed, saddle fit, a sorespot or something else that caused him to buck at first, but I don’t give a damn, I should have punished him right away. He learned that he could get away with it and he used it to his advantage.

If a horse only bucks once or twice to tell you something, then you’d better listen, but all it takes is a few times before it becomes a learned behaviour and can plague a horse for the rest of it’s life. Who wants a bucking hunt horse? For his own benefit, you need to stop the behaviour right away, before he learns that he can use it to his advantage, trust me, I know!

I started hunting a new horse this fall, one I had ridden in the ring a lot but had not hunted. During cubbing season we had a few bucking incidents when the field would start to move out and I finally realized I was choking up on him a bit and he would get frustrated with me and buck.

I changed my approach to moving out in the following way, I watch the master closely and when he increases speed, I track the horses in front of me and ask for an upward transition just before the horse in front of me speeds up, first of all this makes speeding up my decision, not my horses, second, it makes me more conscious of not choking on my reins and third, my horse isn’t reacting to the horse in front of him as we have already started moving up. This does require I leave a decent space cushion in front of me, something I need to do anyway.

I am very pleased to report that the bucking has disappeared entirely since I changed my approach. Hope this might offer you some useful suggestions.

Troublesome behavior?!!!

Oh I thought this was another Tiger Woods thread!! :winkgrin: You know…the lovely Wateryglen now admits to her friends that she too was one of Tigers mistresses …and she didn’t even get a christmas card from him.
:lol::lol::lol:
I’m just not feeling up to par today.
:stuck_out_tongue:
Actually, I thought ALL horses & studs exhibit troublesome behavior!!!
:cool:

Excellent suggestion. I call this called horsemanship. Congrats!

<SLW puts her hands on her hips> Wateryglen, are you name dropping here, trying to get a better appointment in the Snobbington Hunt??? :cool: :smiley:

I thought Tiger had done all the Snobbingtons…

[QUOTE=SLW;4570529]
Excellent suggestion. I call this called horsemanship. Congrats![/QUOTE]

Hah! Thanks. I have just learned over the years that if I am having a problem with a horse, 99% of the time it’s because of something I am doing wrong and need to modify…