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Turbine to power farm

Around The Farm
#21

So we had an evaluation done today for solar panels. We use on average 1500 KW a month/. The house sits front facing East and the back faces West. We had a system designed for 108% production. It also has 2 storage cells that should power the house for 2 days when we loose power. Any added charge the solar cells can make will extend that time.

The cost to lease the system is about $30 a month less than the current average electric bill. There’s no out of pocket expenses for the system. That said there’s a 2.9% annual increase to the charge and they don’t let you have the storage cells with the lease option.

The cost to purchase the system is just shy of $67,000. There’s a 30% tax credit that is still given taking about $20,000 off the price. The 2 storage cells are $11,000 of the price (we loose power regularly here). If we were to finance it through them for 20 years (the system is monitored and warrantied for 20 years storage cells are warrantied for 10) the monthly payment would be around $330 a month. That’s about $100 more than the average bill. So for $100 a month we’d have about 2+ days off power if the grid goes down. The production rate of the panels should leave us with a net annual surplus of energy with a buy back rate is wholesale, or about half what they sell it to you for. The degradation rate of the panels is .5% (.005).

So that’s what I know so far

#22

That said I still need to find out about turbines.

#23

Regarding the peak flow (is that what it is called when several appliances kick on at the same time?), I have wondered about this lately regarding Smart Homes. It seems like it would be a good idea to have a computerized system which would monitor usage and delay the start up of say, a refrigerator, air conditioner, or other appliance which uses a big boost of energy.

So, say you are using your microwave and the thermostat signals the refrigerator to kick in. The computer would put a delay on the start-up of the refrigerator motor either by a certain increment of time, like two minutes, or by a monitoring system where it would sense when the microwave stopped. Or, the refrigerator would be designed with some kind of kick start system which would bank energy to give it a boost for start up without putting a sudden load on the household electric system. This would be really great if it could be done without a battery and instead used a kinetic system like a spring or something which would not need frequent replacement. I know the idea of a spring sounds pretty Rube Goldberg, but with all of the new materials out there, maybe there is a super strong high-tensile substance which would work well. Or a hydraulic pressure system, something like that.

Does this system exist?

#24

Most appliances that need a large boost of energy to start use capacitors. In essence these things store energy and release it in a large burst to start the electric motor. Pretty much every A/C and Heat Pump unit has these. To the best of my knowledge all refrigerators have them as well.

#25

Thanks, Horseman15. So much I don’t know…

#26

Horseman15,
–what’s the system size they propose (how many KW?)

  • I would not oversize your system. From month to month, what you generate is accrued at the retail rate you’re paying. At the end of the year, what’s left over is reimbursed at h wholesale rate. It’s like the Price is Right-- contestant who comes closest without going over wins. The capital investment in panels, racks,etc to exceed your demand will not have a good payback period. You only want to rely on net metering to cover variation from month to month, not to sell back electricity on a consistent basis. Look at your solar panel investment like a medical flex spending account-- use it or lose it.

You really do need a true south facing roof to get the most out of solar. Price out a ground mount system that you can orient optimally.

A 2.9% YOY escalator seems very high to me. Based on EIA projections of electricity pricing in year 2050, your 2.9% escalator will get you there almost 30-years too soon, by year 2021. In other words, their rate of increase seems very far out of line with market expectations. I can’t tell you whether it’s valid, but just make sure you ask this vendor to justify that rate of increase.

Too sleepy to delve into turbines. Manana

#27

@HungarianHippo

The system is a 17.5 KW setup. The​ reason I went oversized is because I still have a barn to build with HVAC in the tack and feed rooms adding 336 square feet of space to heat and cool, barn lighting, a hot water heater and there’s the arena lighting when it’s built.

The 2.9% increase on the leased system was the max annual increase, not set the way I understand it.

@Bluey I’m not relying on any return from the electric company. This is strictly about pulling out a balance and having an alternative source of power since we lose electric regularly.

#28

We lose electricity regularly, being on the end of a very old line, just did last week again.

We have a plain, old propane generator with a transfer panel, that comes on within 3 seconds of losing power, we don’t even know when it is on and goes off as soon as it detects power is back on.

Is the same type our sheriff’s office and hospitals use, very reliable, easy to find parts for, the motor is the same in a regular Ford pickup and anyone can service and work on it.
Works very well for what we need.

May want to consider if that is all you may need.

1 Like
#29

This is a pretty good write up.

http://bergey.com/wind-school/residential-wind-energy-systems

A relevant quote:

A 10 kW wind turbine costs approximately $48,000 – 65,000 to install. The equipment cost is about $40,000 (see 10 kW GridTek System ) and the rest is shipping and installation. Towers without guy wires are more expensive than guyed towers. That depends on your cost of electricity and average wind speed.

G.

#30

If they have the contractual right to increase to a certain max percentage, count on them building that max percentage into their financial model. Don’t agree to that %, negotiate that down using the EIA data as your backup. I’ve attached a graph of their projections through 2050, so you can see just how flat rates are expected to be. (And if they claim it’s to cover their ownership costs during the lease period, there is nothing in the ongoing maintenance and operation of a solar system that would cause their costs to increase by almost 3% every year. Nada.)
[ATTACH=JSON]{“data-align”:“none”,“data-size”:“full”,“title”:“EIA.JPG”,“data-attachmentid”:9828977}[/ATTACH]

Given PA is a deregulated market, are you buying your electricity from a retail provider or the PLR utility? If retail, look at the long-term pricing structure in that contract for ammo to push down their max increase rate.

Note that if you purchase the system vs lease, you get to keep the SRECs which do have some (albeit small) value. I think they’re going for $15 per MWH or so these days. Based on how your legislature structured the RPS, nothing suggests that the PA SREC market will go way up. If I’m guessing right, your 17.5kw system will produce about 22mwh annually? So RECs are not a very compelling number either way.

What inverter ratio are they assuming? Be aware that you can play with that ratio a bit. For example, going from a 1.25 ratio (nameplate AC capacity to peak DC capacity) to a 1.4 ratio will squeeze more output from your project and thus lower your $/kwh. BUT, the 1.25 is better for the long-term health of your inverter; check the warranty to know what’s allowed. So that’s a factor to consider. Especially if your installer is already at a high ratio–you want to make sure the warranty for the inverter they turn over to you at the end of the lease period (if this is lease-to-own) hasn’t been invalidated by those settings.

EIA.JPG

#31

My mother and co-worker got quotes from Solar City and that is the yearly rate increase that both of them were quoted as well (in Maryland). I thought it sounded unreasonable and it worried me to think that one would be locked into such a rate no matter what happens in the outside world, to inflation, and to electricity rates in general. I’m glad I was right about it being unreasonable. I think people are buying into this model without thinking it through fully…

#32

Well, it’s not “the model” or the industry – it’s called negotiation. Accepting all terms without question is no different than walking into a car dealership without any idea of what your car should cost, and just taking their first offer. In that situation, none of us would blame the dealership or the concept of buying a car, would we?

That there are terms in a proposal that work in the supplier’s favor doesn’t make the supplier evil or dishonest. I’m simply trying to raise issues that you’ll want to look at in a given proposal, to make sure they’re to your advantage or at least more balanced.

#33

@HungarianHippo I didn’t know you could adjust the rates of the inverter. That’s an interesting question to pose.

Once I heard the “up to 2.9% annual increase” and only having it lower my current electric bill by $30 a month in average I lost all interest in the lease option.

If I do this it’ll be through the purchase of the system. But it’s so hard to really figure out (with the little yellow pad LOL) where the break even point is with this system - like how many years down the road before I reach the break even point. Even after 20 years I’ll still supposedly have 90% functionality of the solar cells based on the .05% degradation rate. If that number holds true, from there on if they’re still functioning properly I know I’ll have no/minimal electric bills.

On a side note … ​​​​Did you know that on your electric bill there’s a solar charge? It’s supposedly to cover the cost of the electric people with solar cells are selling back to the utility. I’m not sure reading through all of the fine print on things that you have no control of - like utility company bills - is good for the anger management

1 Like
#34

Interesting data.

With persistent outages as a factor, I have to wonder if spending the storage cell money on a standby generator would be a better value and more versatile. I realize it’s not as “green”, but if sized and wired properly it will run very well and give you a fully separate power source and unlimited days of backup power. A natural gas or propane powered generator is fairly practical.

I would tell them take the tax credits out of their proposals. With tax credits the risk is on you. If the money dries up, the project misses a deadline, etc it’s on you. (Unless of course you can get them to refund the difference if the tax credit doesn’t quite happen - so if they argue the tax credit is a “gimme”, see if they’ll guarantee those savings themselves!). With the current administration hacking away at alternative energy, it’s reasonable to question whether that money will remain available.
If/when the tax credit comes in, windfall for you. If not, it wasn’t part of the equation.

Last but not least is the hidden charges. Utility companies are all in the game of forgetting the hidden charges until billing time. I’d cruise around the area and contact other homeowners in the area and get their direct feedback.

#35

I too would price out a stand-alone generator to decide whether those storage cells are worth it.
DHCarrotFeeder raises good points on the tax credits, but they’re not something Congress can sweep away quickly (and a lto of the incentive are state-based). With solar, it’s an “investment” tax credit, so you get the incentive all upfront (as opposed to a production tax credit, which is based on ongoing production). And they’ve never made changes retroactively-- once your system is in, you’ve locked in those benefits, they’ve always made any changes to future projects. I guess never say never, but it’s not something I would lose sleep over.

BUT, taking the tax credit on the storage cells part of the project cost is tricky. They’re only considered part of the renewable energy project if they’re charged exclusively from your solar panels. If you are charging them at night off the grid, then they’re not considered green and would not be eligible. Now, the chances that an individual homeowner would ever get audited are nil – the Treasury is only going to go after the multi-megawatt utility-scale projects. But just wanted you to be aware of that guidance. Personally as a rule I don’t even flirt with tax violations, so I would not try to include the batteries unless we had wired the system in such a way as to exclude the possibility of charging from the grid. Mainly because I believe in paying the taxes that I owe to society, and also because the tax bill savings are simply not worth the audit potential and getting put on someone’s Bad List.

Let me know if you want me to address turbines. I’ve prob blathered on quite long enough. :wink:

#36

The storage cells are wired directly to the panels and not the grid.

I’d like you to address the turbines. From what I’m finding they’re more expensive and don’t seem to produce what solar does from the limited knowledge I have so far

#37

Here is more:

https://greenfuture.io/solar/wind-vs-solar-energy/

http://news.energysage.com/solar-vs-wind-energy-right-home/

#38

What is the utility buy back when there is excess power generated by you…a credit on your electric bill? Any kind refund at some point in time if there is a large credit on your account? I was thinking wind also but not for that kind of investment.

#39

If I produce more than I use I get credits. At the end of the year the reconcile the account and buy back the excess energy, but only at wholesale rates (about half of what I pay for it from the grid)

#40

Here are update on a wind turbine for my area

120’ tower
11.5 mph average wind speed
Blade length 13 feet
32 foot rotor diameter
15KW turbine
$85K cost w/ installation
$40k turbine
$20k lattice tower
$25 installation

Average 24,500 kw annual output

Bergey WindPower Co.

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