TWH Peeps: Why 'no Pride of Midnight' breeding?

I see it in many of the sales ads.

I see it in a write up of the horse on Walker’s West web site.

I see it in a quote from the Echo of Hoofbeats book.

ITo turn it inside out, why don’t I see ‘No Sun’s Delight D breeding’ over and over in the marketplace?

Katherine-- Now that I see the reference points of where you were reading mention of no POM bloodline, I can better understand. :slight_smile:

Horses fall in and out of style in the walking horse world, so maybe POM, who in the 80s was a very sought after bloodline, is now out of favor, that could be why you see ads like that. Or, it could be that the people advertising a particular horse, didn’t like him, or they could be wanting potential buyers to know this horse would be a good match for a horse that does have POM bloodlines.

I would have to see the quote in context in the Echo of Hoofbeats book, to get an idea of why that was written or said. I have both the first edition, and the later expanded second edition of Echoe. I will have to look through them.

Now as to the Walkers West site, I can only speculate why the stipulation about no POM was made. But I do remember that he owner of Walkers West used to own and stand a plantation stallion named The Gold Rush Is On That horse was actually by one of Midnight’s Sun’s lesser known sons- Sunny Midnight P. At the time she was standing him-- a palomino, if I remember correctly – The Pride Piper (also a palomino or very light chestnut light mane and tail) and a son of Pride of Midnight HF was being heavily promoted as a plantation sire as well. And during this time, many of Pride of Midnight HF’s sons were still showing all padded up with chains.

Some flatshod, or plantation people as they were first called, wanted very much to make a distinction between their horses – as possessing the natural old time gaits – and the big lick horses-- which some maintained could not gait properly without all that stuff-- and thus were not “naturally gaited.” They would naturally (no pun intended) want to point out that their horses did not come from lines that were currently winning in the big lick classes – since they thought these horses were not natural and could not produce naturally gaited horses.

Actually there were two horses named Pride of Midnight– but the one bred at Harlinsdale Farm, with the HF after his name is the one most people are referring to because he sired way more foals than the other horse by that name.

Also, there was an old rumor that went around for years that Sun’s Delight D. actually had not been sired by Midnight Sun, but had been sired by another stud, thus Sun’s Delight D. would not have had Midnight Sun as his sire. But again – I stress that this was just an old barn rumor- Midnight Sun is still on his papers, no real proof ever turned up. But all of this was before blood typing or DNA.

Having actually owned two stallions that were out of the same Mare-- Midnight Melody E (by Midnight Sun), but one sired by Sun’s Delight D., and the other by Pride of Midnight HF, I think I am in a position to give an opinion about at least these two horses regarding their differences. Remember, they had the same dam. Both of these stallions were sold as yearlings at the annual Harlinsdale Farm production sale-- and both were trained as big lick show horses, originally. Since their dam was the same, I can only attribute their differences in conformation and temperment to their having different sires.

Robert’s Delight was by Sun’s Delight D. He was a red chestnut horse a little over 15 hands. He had an intermittant lameness problem in one front foot, and was only pasture sound – this happened before we bought him-- and we got him at a bargain price because of it. But people who had seen him shown said he tended to have a more pacy way of going–yes he was shown with pads and chains when he was younger – before we owned him. He had a very pretty head, and was the best tempered and most delightful stallion I ever handled personally.We owned and kept two of his grown sons – one a gelding and one Hamilton’s Delight a stallion (his successor at our place) and one of his grown daughters.

He was a perfect gentleman at all times. He was obedient and was not the type to sull up ever-- and with his hoof problem, he sometimes had to endure all kinds of treatments and farrier work. But he seemed to genuinely like people, and sought their company. I have been told that many Sun’s Delight horses were like that.

In addition to Robert, we owned three mares by Sun’s Delight D. Two of them, Delight’s Ladybird P. and Tinn Lizzie also seemed to really like people, the other Delight’s Amber Spice was not all that kean on people, but her dam susposedly was very mean tempered – so at least her sire mitigated her personality because she wasn’t a mean horse.

Pride’s Red Light was a much taller horse, about 16 hands, and his head was not as pretty, but he was not a heavy mule headed horse by a long shot. He was the same red chestnut color. He too had been shown in pads and chains as a young horse-- he was the GA Walking Horse Association high point 2 year old. When we bought him, he wasn’t showing any more becaue he had developed a hairless callus on one front pastern and a raised callus that could be felt when he was palpated-- thus under the scar rule, he couldn’t be shown.

We took him off his pads and just let him relax- we were very happy with his rehabilitation-- no longer being worked with all that stuff on him-- gradually one callus disappeared, and the hair actually grew back on the other, so he was sound under the scar rull and could have been shown again under the scar rules, but just about that time, we decided not to show at the walking horse shows any more. We showed him successfully at several all-breed shows. He was a very square bold-going horse. He was a bit more high strung than Robert. He would sull up after being corrected for bad behavior-- like being too “horsey.” He did not seem to delight in attention and grooming like Robert did.

Both Robert and Red Light sired fewer than 100 foals, so they did not have the impact of the breed that more heavily promoted staions have had. Robert was euthanized at age 19 becasue of kidney failure. He is buried at my former home Avalon Plantation. Red Light was sold an auction forced by by husband’s death to settle his estate. He was owned by at least two other people after us-- a man in Mississippi, and his last owner Janet Sides of Texas. I believe he died in 2003, and was in his early twenties. He died his his sleep in his stall, and is buried on her ranch. I believe she has one of his offspring still. At least one of his get, a gelding named Houston Solution was shown flatshod in East Texas, but I have been unable to find any thing more about him. I don’t know where he is or if he is still living-- I would like to find him.

Anyway, back to gaits. Many of the big lick trainers preferred swingy or pacy horses because it was said to be easier to “square them up” with chains and pads-- a naturally square going horse could actually start to trot, if put on pads with chains, so getting him to gait correctly was a more complicated matter.

Also, POM, to, had a reputation for being a difficult horse with a mind of his own-- and yes there was a belief among some that POM horses would “tell on you” if you got them too sored
by sulling up.-- At least that is what we were told. But none of this mattered to us because we did not use pads, chains, rollers, weighted bell boots or even bell boots on our horses ever.

This is probably more info than you probably wanted. Sorry to have gone on so long.:slight_smile:

2 Likes

LOL don’t you dare apologize! LOL it reminds me of a horse I called on in NC- I did not want the horse after all but his delightful owner, a lady well up into her 70s with a lifetime of walkers in her mind, filled my ear with stories. When I told her how my (much loved ) TWH was bred she said something to the effect and he’s hard a pistol ain’t he???

Yes, well, yes.

Thank you- great reading - I’m off to print and chew on it !

THANKS!

I’ve been following this thread with great interest, because I have two TWHs who could not be more different. I don’t know anything about TWH genetics and even thought to post a thread of my own with pedigree questions, because I imagine something in their breeding explains their different natures.

My black horse, Pride’s Legendary Choice, certainly can “sull up”, and he has a mind of his own. He’s often by himself in the pasture, doesn’t seem to bond to other horses, but he’s playful, curious, and loves all human attention. Gaits like crazy. It took him a long time to learn to canter, even in the pasture, and his canter is significantly slower than his running walk. His flat walk is really fast.

Pride’s Legendary Choice (Shadow) is by Choice Cuts Imp Haf, by Pride’s Choice Cut, by Pride of Midnight H.F. His dam was Legendary Enchantress, by Senator Sir, by Ebony’s Senator.

My chestnut horse, who started life as a palomino, then became sorrel and now a coppery chestnut, is extremely sensitive and very quick and athletic. He never “sulls up”, just tries harder. He has a more refined head than Shadow and is taller and less square. He seems sometimes to run on pure nerve alone - will get up and go for you even when he is tired and has every reason to quit. He can trot as easily as gait, and move smoothly from one to the other. Fast, flatter canter than Shadow.

The chestnut horse (Sunny) is Justa Secret Time, by Senator’s Secret Choice, by The Secret Choice, by Pride’s Secret Threat. His dam is Justa Pride Time, by Justifiable Pride, by Pride of Midnight H.F.

Both horses are flat shod, and bred for mountain riding.

Is there something in their breeding that explains their different natures? They were bred at the same place, born three days apart and have been trained in exactly the same way.

Nothing in there breedings…just different horses! It ain’t always in the breeding!

Thank you, Elysian, for a series of most excellent and informative posts.

G.

Sorry didn’t realize the pictures would be blurry I will take some new ones later. I am not home to do it

This thread happened to catch my eye, so I thought I would comment. I have no idea why someone would post “No Pride of Midnight breeding” as a selling point, unless they just have no idea what they are talking about. Pride of Midnight was a lovely horse and his get were really popular back in the 1970s and 1980s. Of course anytime a horse is popular and mass bred, you do have the problem that they are being bred to everything and anything, so you end up with some undesirable results. Of course the great thing about mass breeding is that they end up bred to everything and anything so you end up with surprising results that turn out great. It’s always a gamble when it comes to breeding. I have owned plenty of full brothers and sisters, where one was wonderful and another was not worth shooting.

One of the reasons the Pride horses were so popular is that they made so easily and they were good. Even the one’s that did not hit, had value because they were nice looking horses that were smart, easy keepers, and made nice riding horses for fun and pleasure. The biggest drawback to the Pride horses is they did not age so well as far as showing goes. They had a habit of taking the “Pride slide,” which meant that they were great as two and three year olds and then did not do as well as aged horses. I’m not sure that they really went downhill as much as the other horses just caught up to them. As I said the Pride horses made really quick, but sometimes a horse does not come on until his becomes four or five years old, so I think a lot of times those horses just stood out for their ability and flashiness as young horses, but then as older horses they had to compete against horses that developed later.

Because the Pride horses made so quickly and were so successful and popular, a lot of people did all of that line breeding. (I guess their thinking was if one Pride was good, two, three and four would be even better on a set of papers.) I do remember you began to see some awfully ugly double bred Pride mares that were rather hideous looking. Trust me there was nothing uglier than a long back Pride mare with a long skinny head. Ugggh makes me wince even thinking about those long back mares. I wonder what happened to all of them? Anyway I have owned a bunch of Pride horses. All of them made and were shown successfully. As I said they were easy keepers and made quick, and were probably the smartest horses I ever saw as a collective group.