Twins at 18 days too close to pinch.....

This breeding season at the barn I board at one of the mares had twins. I guess it didn’t come up on the ultrasound because I’m pretty sure they ultrasound all the pregnant mares and have pinched twins in the past.

One of the foals had died way before the other one and was about the size of a cat and decomposed. The other one was small but fully formed and was also born dead. Luckily the mare is fine.

Just because sometimes twins work out doesn’t mean it is a good idea to allow horse pregnancies to continue with twins.

Had this with my TB older maiden mare. She is 15 and didn’t think she would catch on the first try. She did but it was twins and they were right on top of each other. Did our best to separate but no luck so pinched anyway and prayed. Re-checked 14 days later and we had one. Checked again 30 days later still one. Our plan was to try and aspirate if the pinch didn’t work or abort.

She is now about 5 months and all is well.

[QUOTE=showhorsegallery;6499873]
Just because sometimes twins work out doesn’t mean it is a good idea to allow horse pregnancies to continue with twins.[/QUOTE]

Certainly not one person on this thread is suggesting that letting a mare go to term with twins is a good idea.

Yeah absolutely not on letting her deliver the twins. The rest I can’t speak to since I have no experience with that but it is not a risk worth taking.

A past vet I used had successfully managed to “massage them apart” when I had twins touching in the past. He then successfully pinched one and the other went on to a live foal. For what is was worth he had never lost a pregnancy either reducing a twin so having twins never bothered me. We were always able to pinch and just happy we had a pregnancy.
I have not had twins for a number of years now <touch wood> but would seek out your best repro vet in the area to reduce the one today if possible! Don’t want until Monday, it needs to be dealt with sooner than later!

[QUOTE=Cindy’s Warmbloods;6500022]
A past vet I used had successfully managed to “massage them apart” when I had twins touching in the past. He then successfully pinched one and the other went on to a live foal. For what is was worth he had never lost a pregnancy either reducing a twin so having twins never bothered me. We were always able to pinch and just happy we had a pregnancy.
I have not had twins for a number of years now <touch wood> but would seek out your best repro vet in the area to reduce the one today if possible! Don’t want until Monday, it needs to be dealt with sooner than later![/QUOTE]

I agree with this… having had a mare have twins and survive all three … (yes I guess we were lucky) but we had u/s and were told no twins… then had to deal with it… and not healthy strong foals…

As an owner of a TB mare that delivered healthy twins, I would NEVER want to go through that experience again. Ever.

Too risky for the mare and the mare needs to come first.

This and what Equine-Repro said. And in the future start looking and trying to reduce before 17 days so that they are still mobile and it is easier to separate them if they are close the first time you look. Good luck. I would not put off trying to get one pinched.

I had this situation this summer. My very experienced repro vet was unworried, would not pinch at 16 days, and said one would kill the other, and we would check for a fetal heartbeat in 15 more days. All worked out as she predicted.:slight_smile: I was definitely a basket case, though, especially with people telling me to go to another vet for pinching, and especially when my mare went in heat right before the 30 day ultrasound. My vet said some will also just be hussies,:lol: Good luck!

Wow! :eek: I would NOT be comfortable with that approach and would definitely be hoping to pinch early on. The situation I discussed above happened after repeated attempts to reduce. After that, I began having my mares checked earlier (day 15 or 16) in order to give us a bigger window. The last time I had a mare twin, the vet was doing the first preg check and pinched the twin before he even took his arm out of the mare.

[QUOTE=hansiska;6501114]
Wow! :eek: I would NOT be comfortable with that approach and would definitely be hoping to pinch early on. The situation I discussed above happened after repeated attempts to reduce. After that, I began having my mares checked earlier (day 15 or 16) in order to give us a bigger window. The last time I had a mare twin, the vet was doing the first preg check and pinched the twin before he even took his arm out of the mare.[/QUOTE]

I totally agree with this. We do the first preg check between 12 and 14 days and there is no reason not to pinch a twin at that first check. The earlier it is attempted the easier it is; easier to manipulate the twins away frome each other and there is still plenty of time to try again (before implantation) if you need to.

Not sure if anyone has mentioned this but you could try finding a veterinary clinic that performs ultrasound-guided transvaginal twin reduction (a needle is passed into one of the embryos and fluid is aspirated).

[QUOTE=hansiska;6499687]
When this happened to a mare I’d bred I was surprised to learn that a relatively high percentage (60%?) of twin pregnancies reduce on their own by about 30 days. .[/QUOTE]

I’d go on to say IF THEY ARE IN THE SAME HORN. If they are in separate horns, your odds plummet. I’d consider the “numbers game” only if they were in the same horn near each other. We had that happen last year - actually, mare late ovulated a THIRD one, and my stallion’s semen lasts forever (literally 5 days later!), so we ended up with three. Ugh.

We had twins that were stacked and the university recommended waiting and reducing the pregnancy at a later date. I am not sure that I will repeat that in the future, but it can be done. This is a great article - http://www.aaep.org/images/files/WolfsdorfsampleScientificPaper.pdf

The only time I had undiagnosed twins they were in separate horns and were equal in size. the mare began dripping milk at about 270 days. Once we ruled out placentitis, I took the mare to the local vet school. They had a powerful US machine and could tell that we had a foal in each horn that were equal in size. I opted (with advice from the vet school doctors backing up my decision) to have the mare aborted in the clinic. I was so very sad. But my first priority was the mare’s health.

Anyone thinking twins are a good idea should revisit the Sassy thread. It has to be the most horrific thread on COTH ever

[QUOTE=ahf;6499928]
Certainly not one person on this thread is suggesting that letting a mare go to term with twins is a good idea.[/QUOTE]

It sounded like LookmaNohands was.

[QUOTE=Equine Reproduction;6499763]
I’m not comfortable just playing the waiting game. I would go in and attempt to reduce one of them. The problem is that yeah…you can take a chance and hope one reduces on its own, but if it doesn’t, it’s more difficult to reduce it with each passing day. At 18 days, I can still manually manipulate them away from each other. Each passing day, they get larger and that becomes more and more difficult and believe me, I’m not saying it was easy at 18 days. FWIW, I have yet to lose a pregnancy when manually reducing a twin - knock on wood - but I probably just jinxed myself <sigh>. I really feel for anyone that has to reduce a twin. It’s HARD work! Hate doing it. Good luck![/QUOTE]

Oh yeah, I concur. Our repro vet spent 15+ minutes fishing around trying to get a good grasp on one twin - which gave me the opportunity to tease him, “make sure you leave me the Grand Prix filly!” It wasn’t an easy task, but in the end he got the one pinched, and the remaining embryo fixated and is healthy. Now only time will tell if our vet fulfilled our other request! :wink:

[QUOTE=showjumpers66;6501519]
We had twins that were stacked and the university recommended waiting and reducing the pregnancy at a later date. I am not sure that I will repeat that in the future, but it can be done. This is a great article - http://www.aaep.org/images/files/WolfsdorfsampleScientificPaper.pdf[/QUOTE]

We had the same problem, and tried twice to reduce the pregnancy at about 90-100 days. Neither attempt was successful, and I had to abort the pregnancy. I wouldn’t try this one again.

Ginther et. al. demonstrated many years ago that there was a near resolution to singleton if the twin embryos were touching and one was smaller than the other. If they were the same size and/or not touching, then the natural resolution rate was significantly lower. In one piece of research the difference was 100% vs 27% (touching/one smaller vs. not touching). Please note however that this is only in one piece of research and not all such situations will have a 100% resolution to singleton!! Other work by Ginther showed retention of the second pregnancy despite being a different size and touching.

Pregnancies should be checked for at 12-14 days, as Hillside recommended. Certainly by 14 days in a straightforward (i.e. non-cyst infested) uterus the conceptus is easily identifiable and if missed is essentially through negligence. Also as Hillside noted, the earlier that a twin reduction is performed by “pinching” the greater the success rate. Fixation of the conceptus occurs around 16 days post-ovulation, so prior to that the conceptus is mobile and moving - on average - about 4 times an hour, hence returning later and re-evaluating may result in a natural separation of twins that are touching, then allowing “pinching”. At that earlier stage, it is also easier to manoeuvre the conceptii apart in the event that they do not separate themselves. In some cases it is possible to manipulate the conceptii apart after 16 days, up to about 18 or 20 days, but this will vary between mares/pregnancies.

One should leave rechecking or treatment no later than 28 days post-ovulation. At that point, one can still give PGF2a and destroy both pregnancies and start again. Leaving it until after 28 days runs the risk that the mare will not return to estrus prior to around day 33-35 when the endometrial cups are forming and eCG is being secreted, after which the mare will not return to estrus for around another 100 days or so.

In the event that a twin pregnancy remains after the formation of the endometrial cups, there are several methods that may be attempted, but the negative aspect is that the most successful technique reduces not one but both pregnancies - this is the repeated use of PGF2a over the course of several days. Other techniques that may reduce to a singleton pregnancy include intra-cardiac injection of one twin, or cranio-cervical dislocation. This latter technique has a slightly higher success rate, but may result in the fetal heartbeat continuing for several months after the procedure, which can be extremely stressful for the mare owner!!

Undoubtedly the best course of action if one reaches 28 days and still have twins is to give PGF2a at that point, and re-breed.

We have an article on the website that offers some information about this situation.

Hope this helps.