Two Prices for One Horse - With Papers and Without Papers

[OveroHunter]

I, regretfully, engaged with some online trolls on facebook that got me wondering about something… Can you advertise a horse as being for sale for one price with papers and another, lower price without papers?

I always figured you could (not that I would), but people are saying it’s actually illegal, so I was just curious if anyone knew.

This all stemmed from a lady trying to sell her horse on facebook. When no one was interested, she advertised the same OTTB mare as being free, but she wouldn’t send the papers along with her. I, and a few other well meaning facebookers, pointed out that the horse would be better off being sent with her papers so at least she would have some history attached to her.

Needless to say, it has spiraled into a whole mess of crazy and since I have no dog in that fight I’m out… I was just curious about the papers thing from a legality standpoint.

[Personal_Champ]

Hmmm. Not sure about horses, but I have seen that done with dogs. Be interested to see what everyone else says!

[Marla_100]

It’s done fairly often here in Ocala with TB’s.

[OveroHunter]

I always figured it was your personal choice whether or not you wanted to sell a horse as papered or not… but I guess if you advertise the horse as papered, but refuse to give them up unless someone pays more there could be a fine legal line… I don’t know.

[RoboRapidash]

A lady sold one of my horses to me and withheld the papers on him because she was mad that I wanted to show him in 4H. He is a TWH that had a show career in his past. Still showed him in 4H once a year for three years. He did fine! I wonder if she technically still ‘owns’ him.

[kdow]

[QUOTE=Personal Champ;8167193]
Hmmm. Not sure about horses, but I have seen that done with dogs. Be interested to see what everyone else says![/QUOTE]

I’ve seen it done with dogs, also, as a way to discourage using the dog for breeding until it can be fixed. Though when I’ve encountered it, it was usually with a puppy and once you sent proof of the procedure, you got the papers for your own record keeping purposes. (Which might apply with horses for studs, but since spaying a mare is pretty difficult, I think you’d just not get the papers ever.)

Of course, no papers doesn’t prevent backyard breeder idiots, so I’m not sure how effective it really is unless it’s in a scenario like the one where you get the papers later, where the breeder or seller stays in contact and can follow up if the animal hasn’t been fixed in a reasonable period of time.

[toady123]

Is this a TB that has raced? If so, and you can follow their tattoo, are papers as important? I honestly know nothing about that industry, I just don’t understand what her motivation would be for keeping them (unless an ownership issue arose down the line?)

[Tee]

I don’t know about other registries, but I’m pretty sure you can get in trouble with the AQHA for doing that. Papers are required to go with the horse.

[The_Country_Eventer]

I think it may depend on the registry. TB’s are sold so often without papers or missing papers, but as Tee mentioned, it would be a problem with AQHA.

For those who have seen this happen, what is the typical difference in cost? A large percentage? Small?

[GoForAGallop]

[QUOTE=Tee;8167235]
I don’t know about other registries, but I’m pretty sure you can get in trouble with the AQHA for doing that. Papers are required to go with the horse.[/QUOTE]

Yes.

It’s not “illegal”, as in you can call the cops on folks.

But registries (almost all, that I know of) are pretty clear on the fact that papers belong to the HORSE, not to the owner. It protects the horse.

[poltroon]

The registries have their own rules for how they might sanction an owner for doing something like that, and to whether they’ll issue duplicate papers to a later owner.

But it’s not “illegal” as in illegal according to US law.

Like OP, I think it’s more dangerous for the horse to lose its identity, especially a mare. One could arrange something like, “I’ll send the papers in a year” or the like that would probably end the possibility of racing while still preserving the identity.

[findeight]

In the case of a (legibly) tattooed OTTB, it’s a moot point. ID is permanently attached to the horse.

Otherwise, when I run into these one price for the horse with papers and another without sellers? I always visualize random registration papers sitting in a drawer pulled out and sent with a horse that matches the description on the papers if they get a sucker hooked who want papers and will pay extra-“You want papers? Yeah, we got papers…”. The reason I can visualize it is I have seen it in real life. More then once.

Papers have NO legitimate value if they aren’t with the horse that “owns” them. There is absolutely no reason to include them at an extra charge unless somebody keeps the ones people won’t pay more for and has them available for the next naive buyer that will pay for a plain bay and extra for papers.

There are some cases where papers are legitimately withheld, like the check clears first or the breeder does not want it bred but they don’t charge extra for them and keep them to sell with another horse. I am always suspicious of whose papers you got when paying extra for them and what seller did with papers buyers did not want to pay extra for. Especially with plainly colored and marked geldings.

There is no statute that would prevent advertising the two prices. If the papers offered at an extra charge belonged to that horse it’s not an issue, seller can ask whatever they want. It’s fraud, of course, if they sell some other horse’s papers.

And, yeah, they do it sometimes with dogs and cats as a way to discourage breeding them but dogs and cats generally stay with the original buyer and are not resold several times or more like horses are over their much longer lifetime.

[SmartAlex]

[QUOTE=RoboRapidash;8167228]
A lady sold one of my horses to me and withheld the papers on him <snip> I wonder if she technically still ‘owns’ him.[/QUOTE]

Some registries state in their rules that registration papers are not indicative of actual ownership. It isn’t uncommon for people to sell registered horses without papers as “pet quality” so to speak and in those cases, the horse is worth more WITH the papers than without, hence the two prices. The horse can keep his identity but without an original up to date certificate of registration the horse cannot be shown in BREED shows, and future offspring cannot be registered with that breed. Now, if you aren’t interested in breed shows or breeding, the value of the original certificate is $0 anyway.

[mvp]

[QUOTE=Marla 100;8167207]
It’s done fairly often here in Ocala with TB’s.[/QUOTE]

Sometimes it’s done so as to prevent the mare from being bred. That’s not entirely irresponsible.

[enjoytheride]

TBs are a little different because they have tattoos and no breed shows.

Other breeds, it’s a pretty dirty trick.

A breeder will sell without papers if they do not want the horse to represent their breeding program, or an owner might sell without papers in an attempt to get more money.

What it does is reduce the number of homes, many people who buy specific breeds want to show them at breed shows. If the horse is resold in the future WHO he is becomes less certain and it decreases his chance of finding a good home.

Last, it robs a horse of his legacy. Who he is and who his parents are is important.

[Alagirl]

Old dirty trick (and hell, a free horse w/o papers? That’s as good as a one way trip across the boarder!)

In Germany it was decided oh, 30 years ago that the papers go with the horse, the extra charge of 500 bucks or so was illegal…

I have heard competitors just shrug though, the registration with the FN as ‘foreign bred’ was cheaper than bothering with the papers…

As for the US…well, this is the wild wild west!

[DoubleTwistedWire]

@enjoytheride;8167357

TBs are a little different because they have tattoos and no breed shows.

Not entirely true. In the MidAtlantic at least, there are quite a few TB specific shows, TASS and the like. There’s also a USEF C rated hunter division as of this year, Thoroughbred Hunter, that runs at 3’.

But unlike other breeds, if you know the name/tattoo, you can get a TIP number at least from the Jockey Club, and still participate in those things.

[CHT]

It IS illegal in Canada to sell a horse without its papers if it is registered. No, you can’t call the cops on them, but you CAN take them to court over it.

That said, is it ok to sell a horse whose registration has not been completed for a lower price vs if the seller processes the paperwork. It is also pretty common (around here) for ex race horses to be sold without their papers by conscientious sellers who don’t want their retired race horse to go back to the track.

[Beck]

@CHT;8167529

It IS illegal in Canada to sell a horse without its papers if it is registered. No, you can’t call the cops on them, but you CAN take them to court over it.

My understanding was that it is illegal in Canada to advertise a horse as being registered (purebred) and then not supplying the papers. If your ad says, “TB” or “Quarter Horse” you must provide papers to go with the horse. If your ad says “QH type” or “TB cross” or “Part TB” or “Grade QH” then no papers are required. It is more about misrepresentation/false advertising than it is about where the papers belong (which is really with the horse).

And yes, TB’s are sold all the time without their papers in order to prevent their return to the track.

[reubenT]

I wouldn’t do it. And I think it’s stupid. What good is the paper if you don’t have the horse? If I don’t want to keep a given horse, why restrict what someone else may want to do with it? Even if I gave the horse away I’d still send the registration with it. I just picked up a nice paso fino mare, good breeding stock. Gave to me with the signed registration so I can transfer it if I want. That’s the way it oughta be. I took her to a group trail ride campout and she did great. When someone has two prices, I’d suggest they actually want the higher price, and are just posting the lower one as a tempter, hoping to get the horse sold and still get more money. Later if not now. So consider the horse as priced at the higher price unless the horse is actually definitely not going to be used for anything that the registration would matter for. Which may only be the case if that horse is quite old and/or you intend to keep it until death do we part. Even then it’s not a good deal, I think the paper should be held by the last owner even if the horse was old and died soon. Registration belongs to the horse. Horse belongs to the owner, if owner decides to rid themselves of horse, the paper is pointless to keep. If it is kept it just means the owner doesn’t want to relinquish all ownership authority to the new horse owner.