Ultimatedressage.com - can you get in???

[SarMoniet]

Sar and co were banned because they behaived like kindergarteners.

Hey, hey, hey. Let’s tell the truth here. I was banned because I revealed the identity of Pathfinder (Posse977) to my FRIENDS in a PRIVATE forum. How was I to know there was a mole amongst us? For the record, I’d already told a handful of FRIENDS who Pathfinder was in person. Guess what – nobody ever told anyone else! Well shucky-darn, then I was “found out” in print. Did the world come to an end? Not that I noticed. Mark’s feelings were hurt.

Oh, and I also called him an ass amongst my FRIENDS in the PRIVATE forum for banning them. Once I was banned, too, I made that statement publicly.

I swear, Mark’s feelings get hurt more easily than most women I know…

But oh good lord, a few faces have popped up here that make me ever so thankful that I don’t hang out on the UDBB dressage board anymore. Whoa. I was sick of you then and you’re even more annoying now. It takes a certain type of person to turn an “I miss the UDBB” thread into a raging RK/classical debate. Give it a rest already. It gets old. Just because you think you are right doesn’t mean that everyone else has to agree with you.

So sorry. I had every intention to avoid this thread until my name was mentioned.

[sabryant]

quote eqipoize
“I hope we brought a little something positive into this forum”

With all due respect, eqipoize, I think the majority of your posts on this thread have been negative. I think Theo states the facts of what has happened to him and the facts about what is happening on the other side of the pond. I haven’t, to date, read a post by him that was rude to anyone.

[egontoast]

Ready to go back home because even this thread as already descended into the same old same old

toodle-oo!

• Only europeans know “real” dressage and riding. Us beotians must go sometime to experiement, the real thing.:

who said that? Maybe ONE person?

TOB is a communist BB where all descending opinions are banned.

Poor spelling aside, you said it!

The ODGs are dead, the modern horse is here, move on.

Sorry you feel that way.

etc…

X fingers that Suzy is better.

praying fervently!

[sabryant]

@hototrot

See, I find this very interesting. I don’t take any position on training other than it has to benefit the athletic ability of my horse and that MOST IMPORTANTLY she has to be happy. Before the FEI wrote in stone the concept of a “Happy Athelete” which by the way they take extremely seriously, it was my ultimate, over-riding dogma regarding my neurotic, terrrified, rather dangerous mare.

My trainer (who ran the stable where we liveried) has a broad background, training first with Molly Sieveright (Talland) and then with Anke. Along side this I was also training with a man who spent years at the SRS and takes clinics in the States; an absolute Kottas protege. I learned a huge amount from them both. But neither approach was strictly correct for my mare-- they BOTH inculcated problems in her for later down the line. And looking at pictures one can see that she wasn’t over her back properly. And yes, my riding was perhaps not the best-- but that is what instruction is for. We did progress but with that time bomb ticking away underneath us. She DID have serious problems specific to her. I have ridden under the tuteledge of a list 1 judge for the last year who also judges Stateside from time to time. She’s ridden for her country in both show jumping and dressage and written several books and I guess qualifies in my mind as an Ageless Live Gal. And her emphasis is on what is so often ignored-- the basics. And to me this is purely classical and you can’t skip steps to get there. An active rear end over a supple swinging back into a receiving contact. And over the course of the last year we have both rebuilt ourselves–constantly working on my bio-mechanics enabling my horse’s bio-mechanics, and the scales of training. Because it became obvious that the last two trainers attacked what they saw as problems-- BOTH of them–with techniques and didn’t sort out the foundations. And no matter what path you might want to follow with your training, you have to have these basics in hand. So when I read of stretching like that my heart sings! Beautiful! And NOW my little blond bombshell is producing for me the most beautiful of mediums strides and holding the outside rein like she’s holding my hand. Leg yielding with swung like she’s dancing. And I know what it feels like when it’s wrong, I promise you. So you know, I won’t rise to these discussions of what constitutes “classical” riding and “competative” riding. I know having learned as I have what is correct and when we affiliate this Autumn at Novice/Elementary with my heart in my mouth, provided Moo doesn’t go out chasing sailors, I know we’ll have a great time.

My point is as I said before-- that there are differing approaches that offer different tools and one has to be able to learn enough to choose what is right. And to be able to understand what the books discuss because sometimes it’s not all that easy to “get it”! And for me the scales of training are correct. But I wouldn’t ever close my mind to what’s out there or accept or reject something just because of who might be teaching it. Anke, in her masterclass video, said something in a lesson with a student’s greenish horse. She kept repeating:“Give rein”. And when I saw this many years ago and used it many years ago; boy did it help. So again-- one can learn from the most intersting sources.

Not quite sure what you are trying to get across here, hototrot?? What I was trying to relate is: if you come from a backgroud of pactical (vs. what you read in a book) training from the ODG’s, there is little difference between the ODG’s way of training and the “modern” deep training of todays horses.

[siegi_b]

Eggy - you just have to quit descending… I mean, how low can you get? Other than that… I’m in agreement with your lovely post.

[hototrot]

@sabryant

Not quite sure what you are trying to get across here, hototrot?? What I was trying to relate is: if you come from a backgroud of pactical (vs. what you read in a book) training from the ODG’s, there is little difference between the ODG’s way of training and the “modern” deep training of todays horses.

I was using my own experience, much as you were, to illustrate that good can come from all schools as can bad. I feel that we should learn about the tools at our disposal instead of dismissing them and ride safeguarded by keeping the “happy althleticism” of our horses as the primary objective. And I feel too that these days one sees far too many necks far too short regardless of who the trainer is or which school of thought he/she espouses. Reading is great-- but very hard to translate into feel which is part of the problem when one draws from books again regardless of who writes them.

Also that the competative-modern vs the classical-SRS(for example) schism which is so often beaten to death in these BBs is to me meaningless. To me true classicism is simple adherence to the scales of training. Just my personal view which my experience has taught me and which serves me very well.

And your illustration of stretching in that way was lovely to read.
Sorry is this any clearer to you? Feel free to drop me a pm if you’d like?

[dlmca]

See, this is why, although I enjoy COTH and many of the folks here, I so seldom post - by the time I formulate a reply, type it up, edit it 50 gazillion times so it says what I really mean and doesn’t sound too stupid, the thread has gone off on an entirely new tangent and I end up saying “oh, never mind” and deleting the whole thing. Which just happened again. I guess I’ll have to learn to be quicker if I want to play in this sandbox.

Zin, hope that Holly is recovering from her porcupine encounter and that the basenji will be home soon, none the worse for wear! Jingling really hard for him.

Anyway, thanks again to all you COTHers (and thanks to Erin too) for hosting us and letting us have a little corner of the server for a while. We’ll be out of your hair soon.

[BarbB]

@zinnniaz

I disagree that people are banned for disagreeing with any party line.

That’s really funny :yes:
Don’t say that in front of any of the boogers…or even those of us who were banned for laughing at them. :lol:

[Sannois]

First off

Let me say I think it is EXTREMELY generous of our mods to let this 17 page sob fest go on unlocked!
That said, I have never know Erin to ban anyone for having a difference of opinion, if that was the case we would all be banned! She may make some cool their heels for a period if they have gotten a bit evil in their posts. We have had our share of snarly train wrecks on here, but what I have found is no one really hold a grudge, I have not been agreement about Rollkur on here, and I still respect the ones who are not against it…
And yes its a public board, but I have a private board as well, several COTHERS and friends, who talk about weight loss and horses and life in General, I have never banned anyone, I have blocked a few sickos over the years cause it is a universal board, anyone can get in.
What I love about COTH is that there is such a wide range of experience in all areas of horses, And people can always find help in so many areas of horses. So I think I will never be a member of UDBB I cant any way according to the owner, I am a low life I have a free mail account! And personally I will stick to COTH!!!
Just imagine your moderator being this tolerant about a 17 page thread about another board! :eek: :no:

[sabryant]

@hototrot

I was using my own experience, much as you were, to illustrate that good can come from all schools as can bad. I feel that we should learn about the tools at our disposal instead of dismissing them and ride safeguarded by keeping the “happy althleticism” of our horses as the primary objective. And I feel too that these days one sees far too many necks far too short regardless of who the trainer is or which school of thought he/she espouses. Reading is great-- but very hard to translate into feel which is part of the problem when one draws from books again regardless of who writes them.

Also that the competative-modern vs the classical-SRS(for example) schism which is so often beaten to death in these BBs is to me meaningless. To me true classicism is simple adherence to the scales of training. Just my personal view which my experience has taught me and which serves me very well.

And your illustration of stretching in that way was lovely to read.
Sorry is this any clearer to you? Feel free to drop me a pm if you’d like?

No worries, hototrot, I understand this last post and I, totally, agree with you! It is not your fault on the last post either. I have terrible dyslexia and get mixed up if I have to read or type a very long post. I had to have a laugh at Dlmca’s post as this often happens to me too unless I can be quick and to the point. Hang in there dlmca!!!

[eqipoize]

there is little difference between the ODG’s way of training and the “modern” deep training of todays horses.

Well, I guess it depends on what degree of ‘Deep’ you consider to represent Modern training. IF you only mean that sometimes the horse goes btv, and even poll low, then sure, old horsemen knew you needed to allow that, or at least ignore the mistake sometimes. But, If one wants to consider Walter Zettl an example of the Old tradition, then I would say there is a WORLD of difference between his training and most of what we see in the warm up ring at show. In Practical use as well as in theory. If you do Not consider WAZ an living example of the old traditions, then I would have to ask whom you think is training in the old style? and are they really mirroring the modern fashion of over bending the neck and then Hoping the quarters come through? Because that is really the defining difference - one method goes after the back end FIRST and then waits for a letting go in the top line, which will be manifest with a giving at the poll - simply because the muscles have stop resisting, but the face almost Never goes behind the vertical, because that would mean the horse was pulling his nose back away from the bit, instead of stretching Into it. The Modern method seems to use actions of the bit and driving from the legs and bracing of the back to shape the horses topline FIRST and then try to drive the quarters up and under. IF you get enough forward activity, this tactic can work, after a fashion, because speed mimics the activity of true impulsion. However, the ability to Collect is impaired, because the rider has sacrificed the ability to half halt correctly. Instead, when the HH is applied, the horse Yeilds to the bit, and Gives at the poll, Just as he has been taught, but he Doesn’t sit down behind. The evidence of this failure to really influence the hindquarters is in the widespread poor quality piaffes, pirouettes and balanced halts. I am not talking about the ability or lack of ability to Stand Still - I mean to halt with the quarters engaged, rather than simply artificially squared up, and slightly out behind. You don’t see any problems? Ok, you are entitled to your opinions, as I am mine. I just respect the people who showed me where the faults were, and improved my eye. They are old, and now, some are dead, but they were horsemen and women, and they did not believe in Making a horse do dressage, they taught about Allowing the horse to Offer. And there in lies the greatest difference “between the ODG’s way of training and the “modern” deep training of todays horses.” Sorry if you think there is little difference. I see otherwise.

[sabryant]

@eqipoize

Well, I guess it depends on what degree of ‘Deep’ you consider to represent Modern training. IF you only mean that sometimes the horse goes btv, and even poll low, then sure, old horsemen knew you needed to allow that, or at least ignore the mistake sometimes. But, If one wants to consider Walter Zettl an example of the Old tradition, then I would say there is a WORLD of difference between his training and most of what we see in the warm up ring at show. In Practical use as well as in theory. If you do Not consider WAZ an living example of the old traditions, then I would have to ask whom you think is training in the old style? and are they really mirroring the modern fashion of over bending the neck and then Hoping the quarters come through? Because that is really the defining difference - one method goes after the back end FIRST and then waits for a letting go in the top line, which will be manifest with a giving at the poll - simply because the muscles have stop resisting, but the face almost Never goes behind the vertical, because that would mean the horse was pulling his nose back away from the bit, instead of stretching Into it. The Modern method seems to use actions of the bit and driving from the legs and bracing of the back to shape the horses topline FIRST and then try to drive the quarters up and under. IF you get enough forward activity, this tactic can work, after a fashion, because speed mimics the activity of true impulsion. However, the ability to Collect is impaired, because the rider has sacrificed the ability to half halt correctly. Instead, when the HH is applied, the horse Yeilds to the bit, and Gives at the poll, Just as he has been taught, but he Doesn’t sit down behind. The evidence of this failure to really influence the hindquarters is in the widespread poor quality piaffes, pirouettes and balanced halts. I am not talking about the ability or lack of ability to Stand Still - I mean to halt with the quarters engaged, rather than simply artificially squared up, and slightly out behind. You don’t see any problems? Ok, you are entitled to your opinions, as I am mine. I just respect the people who showed me where the faults were, and improved my eye. They are old, and now, some are dead, but they were horsemen and women, and they did not believe in Making a horse do dressage, they taught about Allowing the horse to Offer. And there in lies the greatest difference “between the ODG’s way of training and the “modern” deep training of todays horses.” Sorry if you think there is little difference. I see otherwise.

I rode in 3/4 clinics with WAZ in 1988/1989. Personally, I could not understand his English. I hope it has gotten better by now. Most of my prior training, was from Greta Towle who was with KM for 11 years. She taught me forward and down!! Not forward down and OUT!! How much more classical can you get than KM. If you ride deep with the hind legs stepping into the wither muscles, you can get the horse to step through/under without force or malice. It makes mince meat out of your above theroy on deep.

[clanter]

I have never know Erin to ban anyone for having a difference of opinion, if that was the case we would all be banned!

there could be a first time…LOL

Again I want to extend my thanks to CLOTH and if we are in the way we would understand you shutting us down

[eqipoize]

I suspect it is because you misunderstand my position on “Out” . I do Not want a horse who roots his nose forward, that shows resistance over the top of the poll. I want those muscles to release, and when they do, the poll will allow the face to hang naturally - which will mean slightly in front of vertical. you say you were taught forward and down - That is fine, and often as the horse first starts this work, they will tuck their nose inward because they lack the strength to really go ‘forward’ with their nose. OK, fine, forgivable, not desirable, but ignored in view of the overall picture. But if you are Pulling their nose in to that posture, you are missing some of the stretch, and worse yet, if your main goal is to tuck that nose in, Then you are not going forward and down, you are going down and In - which shortens the neck and teaches an incorrect folding at C3. That isn’t theory, it is fact. But I also suspect that is Not how YOU ride forward and down - so what do you have to worry about? Just as I don’t get concerned when someone disses on “Classical” trainers who harp on ‘get the head up’ and wind up with false elevation and tight backs. I don’t ride like that, so I don’t have to defend that. I simply say ‘that’s the wrong sort of classical, and represents a misunderstanding’. And much of the problematic ‘deep’ work also is a ‘wrong sort’ of deep and represents a misunderstanding. Where we run into trouble is when the actual authority on a technique or style rides in a manner that is very much at odds with the tradition of opening the topline and allowing the horse to step into the riders hands. Now what can you say? You can’t say that it is a misunderstanding of their style, because THEY are the ones doing it.

Please know, I am not one of the rabid ones who screams every time a horse happens to get a little btv - any more than I would tear my hair out if a horse came a bit ABOVE the vertical! I am not riding that end of the horse anyway - I just use the information given to know more about how my horse is managing his balance. So, just because you may train a bit deeper than I might, fine, I surely won’t call for you to be hung on the cross of tradition - because for some horses it is an important part of their development. But if I were to see you braced in the stirrups with your hands low and wide and your horse’s mouth gaping open, while his chin rests on his chest, well, if it lasted for more than a few moments, I would surely form an opinion about your riding and training, and it wouldn’t be the kindest. But as Ray Hunt would say, if the shoe doesn’t fit your foot, stop kicking and trying to put it on!

[GansMyMan]

Huh?

What I have learned from this thread:

A. Ultimatedressage.com is down for repairs.

B. You all suck and I rock and maybe you don’t agree with me and that means you can all be ignored, but not before I take my horses and go post on some other thread. neener neener boo boo?

C. 17 pages means someone is getting their a$$ handed to them. And it could be me if only I was faster and noticed when a thread was getting really long.

D. all of the above.

[egontoast]

sabryant, in '88 Zettl had not been in NA very long. He was brought over to coach the Canadian Olympic eventing team and young Riders, I think.

He’s Engleesh iss perfect now.

It’s been delightful having SOME of you here! Not so delightful to have those house guests who constantly whine about where they would rather be! And when they get back there, there will no doubt be another gagworthy thread about how awful it was on the Dark Side.

Good riddance to them!

PS I was booted from that sainted board for disagreeingwith one of the self righteous covenistas with a name similar to Moaningka. No warnings, no nuttin. Blessing in Disguise. THANK YOU!

[mbm]

sabyrant -

i happen to ride with someone who has very good Creds from europe… and i can tell you that he does not have me ride anything similar to what the “average” modern deep rider does… and it is all very much what i would find in any good dressage text…

and it works. REALLY well.

does he care about momentary little btv or a little too deep? nope… what he does care about is getting the horse forward and active and through.

its a wonder to behold as horses blossom under his tuteledge.

so i have to dissagree with your statement… altho again i have to say that perhaps we are talking about the same thing and just have a communication problem? its hard to tell

[Sabine]

@egontoast

sabryant, in '88 Zettl had not been in NA very long. He was brought over to coach the Canadian Olympic eventing team and young Riders, I think.

He’s Engleesh iss perfect now.

It’s been delightful having SOME of you here! Not so delightful to have those house guests who constantly whine about where they would rather be! And when they get back there, there will no doubt be another gagworthy thread about how awful it was on the Dark Side.

Good riddance to them!

PS I was booted from that sainted board for disagreeingwith one of the self righteous covenistas with a name similar to Moaningka. No warnings, no nuttin. Blessing in Disguise. THANK YOU!

Eggie- you just made me spill my salsa…LOL!
I would love to know who all the folks from UDBB are that have recently signed up here and given themselves a clean slate…(with a new name…
bet there are quite a few here now, that have a reputation over on the sunny side…

carry on…I hope I don’t choke on the chips…

[Sabine]

@mbm

sabyrant -

i happen to ride with someone who has very good Creds from europe… and i can tell you that he does not have me ride anything similar to what the “average” modern deep rider does… and it is all very much what i would find in any good dressage text…

and it works. REALLY well.

does he care about momentary little btv or a little too deep? nope… what he does care about is getting the horse forward and active and through.

its a wonder to behold as horses blossom under his tuteledge.

so i have to dissagree with your statement… altho again i have to say that perhaps we are talking about the same thing and just have a communication problem? its hard to tell

Have you ever considered that your trainer is teaching you what is the foundation and the prerequisite of good riding and that what Sabryant is describing is a method to EXPAND on that as you become a more feeling and competent rider. The two descriptions don’t exclude each other- one is the foundation for the other…

[saltheart]

“I would love to know who all the folks from UDBB are that have recently signed up here and given themselves a clean slate…(with a new name…
bet there are quite a few here now, that have a reputation over on the sunny side…:”

I am one of those (yes, new name!) Clean slate - yahoo!