Ultimatedressage.com - can you get in???

[Utah]

Heee’s Engleeeesh is veeeery gute, howeveeer, the first time I heard,
“Zee mouse is zee most sensitve part of the horse”, it took some time. Zee Mouse? What part is Zee Mouse? I have never heard of Zee Mouse!

“Yah, zee mouse. Zometimes zee beet heets zee teeth when are hands are too heavy (Etc, etc).” AHA! Zee mouse! I felt like a gosh darn rocket scientist for finally figuring that one out!

[swinrich]

@Utah

Heee’s Engleeeesh is veeeery gute, howeveeer, the first time I heard,
“Zee mouse is zee most sensitve part of the horse”, it took some time. Zee Mouse? What part is Zee Mouse? I have never heard of Zee Mouse!

“Yah, zee mouse. Zometimes zee beet heets zee teeth when are hands are too heavy (Etc, etc).” AHA! Zee mouse! I felt like a gosh darn rocket scientist for finally figuring that one out!

The first time I audited the german born clinician that comes in monthly I was extremely confused when she kept saying “touch him on zee bud!”

[bjrudq]

ugh

eggie wrote: “And when they get back there, there will no doubt be another gagworthy thread about how awful it was on the Dark Side.”

god, i hope not. that would be very impolite, imho.

i for one like it here, even though i don’t post here as much.

and i use the same name here as i do on udbb, always have. like many others.

[sabryant]

@eqipoize

I suspect it is because you misunderstand my position on “Out” . I do Not want a horse who roots his nose forward, that shows resistance over the top of the poll. I want those muscles to release, and when they do, the poll will allow the face to hang naturally - which will mean slightly in front of vertical. you say you were taught forward and down - That is fine, and often as the horse first starts this work, they will tuck their nose inward because they lack the strength to really go ‘forward’ with their nose. OK, fine, forgivable, not desirable, but ignored in view of the overall picture. But if you are Pulling their nose in to that posture, you are missing some of the stretch, and worse yet, if your main goal is to tuck that nose in, Then you are not going forward and down, you are going down and In - which shortens the neck and teaches an incorrect folding at C3. That isn’t theory, it is fact. But I also suspect that is Not how YOU ride forward and down - so what do you have to worry about? Just as I don’t get concerned when someone disses on “Classical” trainers who harp on ‘get the head up’ and wind up with false elevation and tight backs. I don’t ride like that, so I don’t have to defend that. I simply say ‘that’s the wrong sort of classical, and represents a misunderstanding’. And much of the problematic ‘deep’ work also is a ‘wrong sort’ of deep and represents a misunderstanding. Where we run into trouble is when the actual authority on a technique or style rides in a manner that is very much at odds with the tradition of opening the topline and allowing the horse to step into the riders hands. Now what can you say? You can’t say that it is a misunderstanding of their style, because THEY are the ones doing it.

Please know, I am not one of the rabid ones who screams every time a horse happens to get a little btv - any more than I would tear my hair out if a horse came a bit ABOVE the vertical! I am not riding that end of the horse anyway - I just use the information given to know more about how my horse is managing his balance. So, just because you may train a bit deeper than I might, fine, I surely won’t call for you to be hung on the cross of tradition - because for some horses it is an important part of their development. But if I were to see you braced in the stirrups with your hands low and wide and your horse’s mouth gaping open, while his chin rests on his chest, well, if it lasted for more than a few moments, I would surely form an opinion about your riding and training, and it wouldn’t be the kindest. But as Ray Hunt would say, if the shoe doesn’t fit your foot, stop kicking and trying to put it on!

I refer you to the archive on this board to a thread I started with a link informing of the lastest information gathered about deep/RK by hillary clayton.
The underneck of the horse does NOT become shorter in ddep/RK. And yes, i do after some time like to ride the horses face btv and toward the knees. It is for the suppling of the poll and jaw…nothing more!!! I ride the nose toward the ground until he develops some topline muscle (3 to 6 months) and then I ask for the suppling of the poll and jaw back toward the knees. Once I can develop more the muscle in front of the wither and the horse is, surely, stepping from behind to there, then I can bring the horses face up and the poll the highest point and the bit is soft and he does not struggle because he has developed the muscle to step other than against your hands. Any riding not done with making the horse in self carriage is bad riding. To me, any riding that makes the horse in self carriage is good riding no matter where the face of the horse happens to be.

Sab, I had to have a howl at your post! Thanks for the laugh! You too Eggie! You too, Utah! “Gute” was about the extent of what I could understand when I rode with him!!

[mbm]

@Sabine

Have you ever considered that your trainer is teaching you what is the foundation and the prerequisite of good riding and that what Sabryant is describing is a method to EXPAND on that as you become a more feeling and competent rider. The two descriptions don’t exclude each other- one is the foundation for the other…

hmmm… i am not sure how its going to happen that as i go along that the basics that i am learning (which come straight from the books so to speak) are going to change so dramatically that the book would be thrown out??

in any case i watch the FEI horses from this trainer and the is no extreme deep or deep at all. the horses are nicel foreward throguh etc etc etc… but not manipulation of the neck at all.

i am REALLY looking forward to learning from this trainer… as i mentioned i feel really blessed to be exposed to this level of work.

and fwiw, i am totally open to the possibility that sabyrant and i are talking about the same thing but just arnt commnuicating well (as i have stated several times already)

[dlmca]

@sabryant

I had to have a laugh at Dlmca’s post as this often happens to me too unless I can be quick and to the point. Hang in there dlmca!!!

Hey, one of these days I’ll learn to be quicker off the mark! Or else I’ll just post anyway and not care that what I’m responding to happened 3 pages ago.

[clanter]

@saltheart

“I would love to know who all the folks from UDBB are that have recently signed up here and given themselves a clean slate…(with a new name…
bet there are quite a few here now, that have a reputation over on the sunny side…:”

I am one of those (yes, new name!) Clean slate - yahoo!

so you caught me again

[Graymaresrule]

@egontoast

sabryant, in '88 Zettl had not been in NA very long. He was brought over to coach the Canadian Olympic eventing team and young Riders, I think.

He’s Engleesh iss perfect now.

It’s been delightful having SOME of you here! Not so delightful to have those house guests who constantly whine about where they would rather be! And when they get back there, there will no doubt be another gagworthy thread about how awful it was on the Dark Side.

Good riddance to them!

PS I was booted from that sainted board for disagreeingwith one of the self righteous covenistas with a name similar to Moaningka. No warnings, no nuttin. Blessing in Disguise. THANK YOU!

I’m sure UDBB will have a large number of posts expressing happiness that Suzy has recovered and how much we missed her. We also appreciate the time effort and money Mark (and Digi)has lavished on her. We all know that he has better things to do than devote so much time and energy to her.

Most of us are very gratefull that COTH is allowing us an amazing amount of leeway. I have had my share of disagreements on UDBB(mostly over abortion and Pit Bulls) but i can’t imagine any of us being less than appreciative of your hospitality.

[Tonja]

dlmca wrote:

Hey, one of these days I’ll learn to be quicker off the mark! Or else I’ll just post anyway and not care that what I’m responding to happened 3 pages ago.

I don’t worry about coming in 3 pages late if there is something I’d like to say. I quote the post I am referring to to set the context so people don’t think I’m coming in from left field and post away. (well, some may still think I’m out in left field anyway )

[sabryant]

@dlmca

Hey, one of these days I’ll learn to be quicker off the mark! Or else I’ll just post anyway and not care that what I’m responding to happened 3 pages ago.

Goody good for you!! No one minds if you post is 3 or 10 pages later! As long as you don’t hijack another’s thread or call someone a bad name, you’re fine on this board!

[Aylah]

utem is that you…he he he

[Jmc]

Holy crap…I just spent the last 20 minutes typing out a well thought out post and my puter ate it :mad:

Here’s the gist of it:

Generalizations…UDBBers think COTHERS are mean…COTHERS think UDBBers are a bunch of blow hard odg huggers.

Aren’t there really just a few outspoken individuals that fit those descriptions on their respective BB’s?

I was one of the jack@sses that thought that way about coth…until about 4 or 5 days ago…once I had spent some time here I changed my mind. It’s not fair to generalize like that.

Don’t get me wrong, I sleep next to one of my odg books every night…and as a side note…I much happier with them than I ever was sleeping next to the bum I married for 11 years! I’m an odg hugger and proud of it! But that’s my prerogative, isn’t it?

This whole conversation is just kind of fascinating to me. Maybe I’m just a huge geek. :yes:

I seriously doubt coth will ever crash if it hasn’t this week after “the invasion”. But if it ever does, I would sincerely hope that a thread would be allowed for refugees. Some of you will just have to get a paid email if you want to play, that’s all.

Still basenjingling.

[eqipoize]

@sabryant

I refer you to the archive on this board to a thread I started with a link informing of the lastest information gathered about deep/RK by hillary clayton.
The underneck of the horse does NOT become shorter in ddep/RK. And yes, i do after some time like to ride the horses face btv and toward the knees. It is for the suppling of the poll and jaw…nothing more!!! I ride the nose toward the ground until he develops some topline muscle (3 to 6 months) and then I ask for the suppling of the poll and jaw back toward the knees. Once I can develop more the muscle in front of the wither and the horse is, surely, stepping from behind to there, then I can bring the horses face up and the poll the highest point and the bit is soft and he does not struggle because he has developed the muscle to step other than against your hands. Any riding not done with making the horse in self carriage is bad riding. To me, any riding that makes the horse in self carriage is good riding no matter where the face of the horse happens to be.

See the longer we talk the closer together the truth comes. Because your last sentence is it in a nutshell isn’t it. And if you have a horse that requires extreme deep, fine, so long as you and your horse ‘out grow’ it. But I will also say that I have found that suppling the poll OFTEN results in a broken neck that gives where I wish it wouldn’t. Sort of like using a whip that someone has let their horse step on jor closed in the car door, and now it is broken in the middle - No spring in it, just this limp hingy thing. So, I don’t do the nose to the chest thing, and I honestly believe that sooner or later, you may discover the shortcomings of that work, but if you eventually GET self carriage and engagement, then you are leagues ahead of most competitive dressage riders. Sad but quite true.

Now, I prefer NOT to discuss Hillary Clayton. I guess you either think she knows something about dressage or you don’t. I have read many of her reports and found that often her selection of examples is so flawed that of course the results are flawed. And sometimes objective results are not the entire story - as shown by the discussion during the FEI symposium on “Hyperflexion” - where one study “Proved” that the back has more mobility when in the deep posture - and one participant explained that while you might have increased measured amplitude, it came from the TIGHTENED back following the motions of the withers because of the excessive stretch tightening the ligaments - so while the back “moved” more, it was NOT good dressage. So, I am not always secure in accepting that the McPhail chair’s studies give results that support GOOD dressage - because I am not convinced that the researchers Know Good dressage. You probably feel quite differently. Which is why I choose not to discuss the study - because the real debate would be on its validity - which is basically personal opinion. So, believe as you will - and just accept that there are some who are not so swayed by some ‘scientific studies’.

[Karoline]

God forbid the banned were banned because of their ugly dispositions.

I stand by what I see, Egontoast notwhistanding. Lovely thread and all of a sudden the same old stuff from the same old tired lot. Asking what we are doing here, bashing Marc, bashing UDB, reminding us real riding is not found in our neck of the woods, etc…interrupting the UDBers love fest. And asking what the difference is in the forums. Well, the difference is self evident to anyone willing to read 15 pages.

I like the Care Forum and the Off Course, beginning to find the Eventing stuff really interresting.

And I have not changed my name recently. I have been around for a little while with Karoline.

And if you do not like my posts, please by all mean, push your ignore button.

[valmom]

@Sabine

I would love to know who all the folks from UDBB are that have recently signed up here and given themselves a clean slate…(with a new name…
bet there are quite a few here now

Then again, some of us aren’t significant enough to worry about our slates, clean or otherwise. I use the same name for just about everything…But, I’m mostly a lurker here because I’m a sissy.

[4_beatin_it]

[QUOTE=Generalizations…UDBBers think COTHERS are mean…COTHERS think UDBBers are a bunch of blow hard odg huggers.[/QUOTE]

OMG I just had the most hilarious visual with that statement. A bunch of UDBBers chained to a tree with a bunch of COTHers firing up chainsaws.

Come on guys, you have to see the humour in that visual. :D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D

How about no more RK, no more my European trainer will beat up your American trainer, no more who is better…how about some general silliness and poking fun at the way to serious way we as riders take ourselves.

I remember on COTH when Cactus Kate was here…she was very much like Lucille on the UDBB. I remember beloved horses posting here with German accents and I even had my hands on Flat Chance (where did he go by the way???). I remember The Orgasmatron (man that was a howl) and the boogerfests on UDBB.

No more poking holes in other peoples arguments people…let it go, and how about telling one good thing about what you can remember off of either BB?

[Beau_Cheval_Rouge]

Bleccchhh no UDBB still…

I think 4_beatin_it is really on to something

[egontoast]

interrupting the UDBers love fest

No , it’s the other way around. Cothist Interruptis.

[Karoline]

Oh, how it must irk you that people can actually be happy to find each other and have a place to connect while Suzy is down.

You are like the kid in the giant playground who must have another kid’s toy. Now. No matter that there are another hundred toys (threads) around to play with.

Yes, after reflection, perhaps you are suffering from too much Interruptus, but it ain the Cothus kind.

Do everyone a favor, go kiss and cuddle, perhaps you will be more pleasant thereafter.

[Karoline]

Oh, how it must irk you that people can actually be happy to find each other and have a place to connect while Suzy is down.

You are like the kid in the giant playground who must have another kid’s toy. Now. No matter that there are another hundred toys (threads) around to play with.

Usually, the brat screams: “mine” “mine” as it pinches and bites.

Yes, after reflection, perhaps you are suffering from too much Interruptus, but it ain the Cothus kind.

Do everyone a favor, go kiss and cuddle, perhaps you will be more pleasant thereafter.