Unqualified "Trainers"

[KBC]

@Ambitious_Kate

The funny thing that occurs to me with all these stories of bogus trainers gathering loyal followers who inexplicably keep on training and attracting ignorant clients, Nick Peronace, according to his own recent book, has been completely unable to accomplish even that.

That’s because to make it work you have to keep a local profile! NP made the mistake of drawing attention to himself on a wider stage, so was easily outed.

The “wanna be” who was my first dressage “trainer” just had a nice full local book, lots of returning women, like me, glad to have a ‘friend’ as well as a trainer. It was only when I joined forums and started reading it gradually dawned on me I was not being taught dressage, I was being taught how to get a pretty looking head set.

Took my next trainer years to uninstall the busy hands, constant fiddling, riding front to back. If trainer one had pimped herself here then the COTH hive would of outed her in a minute.

[netg]

I’ve really been lucky not to end up with a scammer at any point in my riding career! I could see at times how I easily would have.

My current trainer isn’t big into showing, but neither am I. I found him when a clinician recommended him after my TB bucked me off violently. She said he was one of the only people she had seen rode through that sort of thing, and that he can also teach it. Both are true! Funny enough, my dad was concerned this trainer was manipulating me until I explained to him that my mom (who I live with and care for) managed to sabotage my attempts to ride at home, so the horses were with my trainer to allow me to ride regularly. As he was married to her for a long time and knows she’s not right mentally now, he understood at that point.

As much as I love working with my trainer, I also have friends for whom he was the wrong match. I feel bad when people take that sort of thing personally, because we all need to do the best for ourselves and our horses, and with different personalities that has different meanings!

[Feliz]

Question - does anyone have any good strategies for helping friends see that they are wasting their time and money with one of these people?

My go-to has always been to recommend good trainers, vs disparaging the trainer they are using - but this has had limited success, especially when I ride a different discipline. Often the trainer they are with is considerably cheaper, so they may think the extra money isn’t worth it for the level that they’re at, and/or the “higher level” trainer is too good for them.

@poltroon

The thing I’ll add here is that quality trainers AREN’T that common. It is HARD to find a qualified teacher that will work with you let alone if you bring any pesky restrictions like work hours and commute parameters or a limited horse. People who are good at training horses are hard to find. But horse people who are good at training people at high levels are shockingly rare.

THIS. Currently I have a wonderful trainer, but finding a time slot that works with my full time job and her more than full time business/show schedule is challenging. She’s a 30min trailer ride away, so not super far, but I’m lucky if I get to her 2-3x a month.

The trainers I’ve had over the last 10yrs have really helped me move up the levels (I show jump), but when I started out riding as an adult I wasted 18mths with a low level trainer who thought she knew everything.

[BigMama1]

@Feliz

Question - does anyone have any good strategies for helping friends see that they are wasting their time and money with one of these people?

It’s really hard, unless they specifically ask your advice. Bringing them to watch your lessons is one of the best ways but mostly you have to just bite your tongue. It’s hard.

[netg]

I’ve never found that telling somebody someone is a problem helps. However, supporting them as they question things can. Talking about your positive experiences so they can see a contrast can help as well.

[skydy]

@exvet

My point is that not all of those with merit and experience have the show record or public accomplishments to prove their mettle.

That’s true. However, the instructor/trainer needs to at least be (or have been) able to ride and train properly before they teach, and NP is neither proficient in equitation nor in training a horse.

I am surprised when people say, “he’d be OK for up/down lessons”. Not in most people’s world would he be. Up/down lessons need to be taught by someone who understands proper position and aids. NP would only instill poor position in beginners, because he does not ride well. His hand position makes proper rein aids impossible and his body position makes seat and leg aides difficult as well.

I’m happy that I had very qualified trainers for up down lessons. The basics are very important and it takes a lot of time to undo the muscle memory of poor position, especially when it’s one of the first lessons you learn as a beginner.

[exvet]

I agree and I don’t think I said anything to suggest otherwise. My point is that lack of a show record doesn’t always equate to inability - whether to ride, to teach or to train. I will say though that the ability to do one, two or all three must be demonstrated and repeatable and whether watching someone else be ‘the victim’ or dipping your toe into those waters directly does require some risk.

I am more amazed to be honest with so much available on line regardless of whether you’re of the classical ilk or more modern competitive dressage ilk that some of these ‘unqualified trainers’ aren’t more easily revealed. Having seen some of them at work with my own eyes it’s obvious that they are masters of manipulation and mind control and not so much of riding/training. .

[skydy]

I agree and I didn’t mean to imply that you said anything to suggest otherwise. I was trying to continue your point that instructors don’t necessarily have to be competing. They don’t , but they do need to be or to have been proficient at some level before they teach.

There have been suggestions (not by you) that NP would be OK to teach up/down lessons.
I disagree with that opinion.

[BrokenArrow]

@Heinz_57

Yep, they are everywhere. I guarantee that almost everyone who read the description thought ‘are they talking about XYZ in my area?’, because I know I did.

I was nodding along to this because my in-laws are dealing with this current situation with two of their horses. It’s been a very frustrating time.

Very, very frustrating time. One that has had me wanting to bang my head against a brick wall repeatedly.

[trubandloki]

@skydy

I am surprised when people say, “he’d be OK for up/down lessons”.

Since my post (in that other thread) is one of the posts that mentioned something like this I want to clarify what my point was. It was not meant to say he’d be a good up/down instructor. I most certainly would never recommend someone like him to that person asking where to send their kid. My point over there was that if he had stayed in that market he would have most likely done fine business wise. He would have had an stream of people to teach (if he priced himself for that market) and ride for, who would have later learned that they could do better elsewhere. Just like this thread talks about.

[BigMama1]

Me too. He wouldn’t have raised many eyebrows or ruffled many feathers as an up-down lesson teacher.

[Impractical_Horsewoman]

Didn’t NP challenge Robert Dover’s knowledge at one point, and get into a very public verbal online kerfuffle with him, though? He’s unusual because of the sheer size of his ego and the lack of self-knowledge. Of course, the online self-promotion alone might be one reason he’s become synonymous for hilarious hyperbole.

A mediocre trainer who isn’t Internet-savvy enough to promote online, might even subtly discourage student growth (for fear the student will find someone with greater knowledge), and caters to lower-budget clients won’t draw attention, and might not make a killing, but might make a living if they’re just pleasant to be around.

Give we’ve all discussed how brutal it can be to have a belittling trainer (I don’t mean a brutally honest trainer, but one who is just deliberately unkind), as well as a brutal commute to a barn, I’ll also add that it’s amazing how someone can stay in business just with halfway decent people skills in a good location, regardless of talent, especially if they have an indoor!

[eightpondfarm]

i just switched days for my lessons so i could have a 2hr block of time with my coach. There was a trainer in another ring aboard a new horse at that barn. The horse has been out of training for quite some time (i heard). I watched as the owner kinda lurked around in the ring and the trainer put the horse through it’s paces for owner. What i saw was a lot of trotting and cantering pretty quickly during their short session. I saw this horse behind the vertical…On the canter for sure but trot as well. What i don’t know is was this horse behind the bit or being held in? I’m thinking behind the bit…shrinking back from contact. I did feel sorry for the horse…old enough to be a gray turned completely white.

Now…the trainer is a student of my coach. And my coach had asked that trainer to ride the horse. And owner is to be a new student to my coach. So, i asked my coach, during my lesson and their go-round… I think that horse is behind the bit? She said she wasn’t watching. (good cause i am paying for MY lesson, but…) I also asked my coach: Why do trainers have to do so much work at a fast pace (trot and canter etc)…i mean, what IS that all about? Is it youth? Is is arrogance? Or is it something good that i’m just not understanding. Her answer was that she did most of her work at a walk. (which is one of the things i’ve always done myself).

So, i guess here’s my question… i think what i watched was just an immature trainer at work. But maybe the real question is does this mean my coach is ‘off’ because her recommendation to new boarder to use a trainer-student of hers was not the greatest recommendation?

[Angela_Freda]

@eightpondfarm

. What i saw was a lot of trotting and cantering pretty quickly during their short session.

I think many ammies don’t appreciate the work involved in schooling in walk, the value in it, the difficulty of it. In fact the difficulty in working, actually working not plodding along, in walk is probably a good part of it.

For me personally, getting the “forward” I needed for, say LY, was easier to get and maintain at trot versus walk. But I’m a low level ammie rider. So in a way, its a way to “cheat”.

[Heinz_57]

I don’t think that scenario necessarily means your trainer is “off”. It’s possible that the rider was just quickly putting the horse through its paces to evaluate it; you said the horse wasn’t fit, so a quick walk-trot-canter check might be all it has in the tank. It’s also possible that whomever trained the horse before trained it to go BTV, and it will need retraining. OR, the rider doesn’t know any better on both issues. Maybe your trainer just figured the person was a decent enough rider to be the crash test dummy on a new horse. Hard to say, but it doesn’t sound like your trainer wanted to discuss this other horse and rider with you. Look out into the world and you’ll see a lot of competition winning horses that are BTV… but that’s an argument for another day.

As to doing work ‘at speed’, walking is great. I do a lot of work at the walk. However, dressage training requires strength, stamina, and a bit of ‘wind’ too - more and more as you go up the levels, and you must train for that in trot/canter too. You do not want your horse to “run out of gas” mid test (been there, done that!), and the tests get harder and longer as you ascend. Horses all have varying levels of base fitness to start from, some need more conditioning work, some need less. Horses who have already trained to a higher level are easier to keep at that level, or bring them back up to it after a break. I probably appear to do a LOT of canter work on my pony - but it’s because his canter is weak and he needs a certain level of strength there, before I can even begin to try and influence his way of going.

The only thing that bothers me about seeing riders/trainers doing a lot of trot/canter work is when they aren’t doing it mindfully, when the horse clearly needs a break and they just keep drilling away. I come from eventing and it drives me nuts to see people who don’t understand the principles of conditioning work, they just decide to take the horse out and canter it for 20 minutes straight all at once.

[Scribbler]

@eightpondfarm

It’s very interesting to watch other trainers and students ride but at the end of the day you can only evaluate what your own trainer asks you to do with your horse at that moment.

I expect there are complex reasons for the combination of rider and horse you saw. Number one is that for whatever reason your trainer does not want to be the primary horse trainer for that horse and owner combination and I expect has good reasons which she is too diplomatic to share. It is possible the horse is green, or trained incorrectly, or has behavior issues. It’s possible the owner is an over horsed beginner or a difficult personality or on a tight budget.

As far as how the younger trainer rides, you dont know what they were trying to achieve. Maybe they were trying to get the horse to open the poll but he wouldn’t. Maybe they were fighting a horse trying to bolt or buck. Who knows.

It’s possible as well that your trainer does not entirely approve of young trainers riding and is trying to fix her bad habits.

None of this has any bearing on where you are in your own dressage journey. If every single rider who had come up through your trainet has serious faults that’s a red flag. But in this case, I expect younger trainer got all her experience elsewhere and has hooked up with your trainer since coming to this barn, for mentoring a likely because they recognizes what she does well. I would not however necessarily evaluate her as a pure product of your trainers system.

As far as trot and canter work, yes obviously as your training progresses you do a lot more of that. I do think walk is under rated as a way to do basic training. But obviously you also need to school extensively at faster gaits too. Dressage relies heavily on trot, like jumpers relies heavily on canter.

A few years ago when I had daily care and riding of an aged school master who needed to be fitted up, my routine evolved to this. About 10 to 15 minutes going through all the walk lateral work from flexion to half pass both directions. About 10 minutes going through all the lateral work again at the trot. The next 15 or 20 minutes we would do canter patterns, collected to lengthened trot transitions, and true extended trot of she was feeling really good. We did canter half pass and a couple of days did a loose but real canter pirouette. Then cool down. She really liked a 45 minute session.

Her physical issue was topline loss causing her to fall on the forehand so all my work kept in mind encouraging her to lift in front. She was a real energizer bunny and riding her collected canter was a dream, she loved canter, so I had to keep the two of us from wearing her out while building fitness.

I ride all kinds of impromptu bends and half circles etc off the rail feeling what the horse needs at that moment that day, and also lots of change of head position and transitions within gaits. There will be days with my non-dressage talented Paint that we trot and canter on the trails and only do walk lateral work for 15 minutes in the ring. Her issue is warming up enough to be forward enough to school.

[Piaffe11]

@poltroon

One of my own personal red flags is, I don’t like to work with anyone who isn’t themselves devoted to their continuing education in some fashion with a mentor or some other way. I don’t think this is a high bar and yet because of either money or personality quirks, this criterion alone drops a majority of professional horse people I’ve come across in my experience.

This! I don’t know why so many of the upper level trainers think they are beyond having a coach or having a mentor. I would mark them off of my list as well. My coach has trained and shown at GP, but still has her coach in almost every week.

A trainer who tells me they do not need to take lessons would be an immediate no from me.

[Equkelly]

@Feliz

Question - does anyone have any good strategies for helping friends see that they are wasting their time and money with one of these people?

I don’t know but if anyone has ideas I’m in need of this advice too! I have a really good friend who I seriously worry about and she’s been to multiple trainers and they’re all giving her terrible advice and my poor friend keeps thinking it’s her fault she’s not doing things right.

[cardinale]

Oh yeah, this IME is the primary reason unqualified “trainers” can make a go of it:

exvet: they are masters of manipulation and mind control and not so much of riding/training.

Just about every one of these folks I’ve encountered is superficially personable, with an engaging personality and the gift of gab.

[SuzieQNutter]

@eightpondfarm

i just switched days for my lessons so i could have a 2hr block of time with my coach. There was a trainer in another ring aboard a new horse at that barn. The horse has been out of training for quite some time (i heard). I watched as the owner kinda lurked around in the ring and the trainer put the horse through it’s paces for owner. What i saw was a lot of trotting and cantering pretty quickly during their short session. I saw this horse behind the vertical…On the canter for sure but trot as well. What i don’t know is was this horse behind the bit or being held in? I’m thinking behind the bit…shrinking back from contact. I did feel sorry for the horse…old enough to be a gray turned completely white.

Now…the trainer is a student of my coach. And my coach had asked that trainer to ride the horse. And owner is to be a new student to my coach. So, i asked my coach, during my lesson and their go-round… I think that horse is behind the bit? She said she wasn’t watching. (good cause i am paying for MY lesson, but…) I also asked my coach: Why do trainers have to do so much work at a fast pace (trot and canter etc)…i mean, what IS that all about? Is it youth? Is is arrogance? Or is it something good that i’m just not understanding. Her answer was that she did most of her work at a walk. (which is one of the things i’ve always done myself).

So, i guess here’s my question… i think what i watched was just an immature trainer at work. But maybe the real question is does this mean my coach is ‘off’ because her recommendation to new boarder to use a trainer-student of hers was not the greatest recommendation?

A red flag is your trainer giving you a 2 hour block. Unless this is riding 2 horses with you untacking and tacking in the middle yes

2 hours for one horse when you have said you are a beginner rider no. 2 hours of mainly walking and sitting talking. No.

It is too long mentally for the horse. As a professional rider I ride 20 minutes on a beginner horse daily. It is amazing how fit a horse becomes on 20 minutes a day. That said I am in a hot country and don’t spend a lot of time in warm up as the horse is hot. I do warm up and warm down in that time. They are fit enough and strong enough to go to an hour lesson with that.

Yes walk is important and is worth double points in dressage. Trot is the training pace. When you hop on an unknown horse in the case of this trainer you are taking your life in your hands. If the horse is fit and not quiet, then you go into trot to keep the horse forward and in contact to prevent bucking. Canter may be needed if the horse is too full of energy. If the horse is behind the bit on the first ride it is most probably because of prior training. The trainer needs to trust the horse to give the reins to ask the poll higher. Remember I said her life is in peril with an unknown horse.

I always ride a horse better the second time I ride it no matter how well I ride it the first time. I think it is just the mental I survived and my body reflects that.

I also will not ride a horse I have not seen ridden first. I can tell a lot by seeing a horse ridden and one of those things is if it is safe enough to ride.

If it comes here without me seeing it ridden first then I start from on the beginning on the lunge and ground driving. From there I can tell if it is safe enough to ride. And touchwood this has kept me safe thus far.