Update on bosal question

[Bluey]

We started all colts in our homemade grass rope nose hackamores, race colts also.
We started them riding around the shedrow a day or two, then outside, not in any pens or arenas.
We taught the colts to respond to the hackamores in the first ten minutes we handled them, it is easy to do, they learn very fast and if you keep the light touch, there is no reason you can’t shut down a colt trying to bolt, any place.

Here are two older horses, two colts being started, all wearing our hackamores, that are made after the ones Pine Johnson, of Poco Bueno fame, started using in the 1950’s and no one has improved on yet:

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a298/Robintoo/Scan043December262006.jpg

Why are those still good? It is in the training behind them and how you use them.

By the way, I never heard before of any “one rein stop” until a few years ago on the internet.
Is just not something most older trainers ever used.

I think magazines started talking about it after those clinicians used that to get some of their out of control less than adequate riders on uneducated horses to get some kind of control of their horses in the crowded clinics.

I don’t think that was intended to be used outside.

[Bluey]

We started all colts in our homemade grass rope nose hackamores, race colts also.
We started them riding around the shedrow a day or two, then outside, not in any pens or arenas.
We taught the colts to respond to the hackamores in the first ten minutes we handled them, it is easy to do, they learn very fast and if you keep the light touch, there is no reason you can’t shut down a colt trying to bolt, any place.

Here are two older horses, two colts being started, all wearing our hackamores, that are made after the ones Pine Johnson, of Poco Bueno fame, started using in the 1950’s and no one has improved on yet:

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a298/Robintoo/Scan043December262006.jpg

Why are those still good? It is in the training behind them and how you use them.

By the way, I never heard before of any “one rein stop” until a few years ago on the internet.
Is just not something most older trainers ever used.

I think magazines started talking about it after those clinicians used that to get some of their out of control less than adequate riders on uneducated horses to get some kind of control of their horses in the crowded clinics.

I don’t think that was intended to be used outside.

By the way, is everyone also having a terrible time reading and posting?
My computer keeps timing me out and the font keeps changing around.
It also keeps telling me to wait and repost when I try to post, when I have not posted yet?

[7HL]

By the way, is everyone also having a terrible time reading and posting?
My computer keeps timing me out and the font keeps changing around.

YES!! Getting server error message, saying COTHs servers to busy. Got it from multiple locations, starting last night. May be their internet provider.

[Beverley]

@7HL;6385425

As far as one rein stop goes one speaking of personal experience. Have ridden my horse in bosal for some time.

You know, friendly reminder, you aren’t the only one speaking from personal experience. In my case, 50+ years, hundreds of different horses of widey varying skills, training, issues, etc. First used a bosal in 1966.

Personally I haven’t ever had a need to employ a one rein stop, even with bolting or panicky horses or green as grass horses. And my biggest concern with it is that when taught as a be-all and end-all to novice or less experienced riders, it can do way more harm than good, high potential for injury to horse and/or rider. If PROPERLY taught and PROPERLY understood, sure, a tool in the tool box. But never a substitute for good solid training on correct responses to the rider’s aids.

And if a one rein stop is used, it certainly does work just fine with bosals. Whether your personal experience says so, or not.

[7HL]

@Beverley;6385803

You know, friendly reminder, you aren’t the only one speaking from personal experience. In my case, 50+ years, hundreds of different horses of widey varying skills, training, issues, etc. First used a bosal in 1966.

Personally I haven’t ever had a need to employ a one rein stop, even with bolting or panicky horses or green as grass horses. And my biggest concern with it is that when taught as a be-all and end-all to novice or less experienced riders, it can do way more harm than good, high potential for injury to horse and/or rider. If PROPERLY taught and PROPERLY understood, sure, a tool in the tool box. But never a substitute for good solid training on correct responses to the rider’s aids.

And if a one rein stop is used, it certainly does work just fine with bosals. Whether your personal experience says so, or not.

Agreed on all counts. Guess my point was that riding in a bosal is not the same as a bit.

[threedogpack]

I rode the mare in it for the third time this afternoon. We only rode about 30 minutes, and only walk/turn/whoa.

By the second time I asked for a stop, I thought it, and raised my hand off her mane…and got the whoa. I’m sure there is some body language to go with all this, but whatever it is, it’s all good as I’m getting a far nicer mare from it.

So…question for you who have the wealth of knowledge. As has been noted before, when asking for a turn, using the bosal is not like a direct rein. What I did today, with mixed results was:

put my weight on the seatbone and in the stirrup of the direction I wanted to turn and gently laid my outside leg on her side

lay the rein on her neck as if I was going to neck rein

and if necessary pick up and bump with the inside rein.

In that order. Not all at once. I was trying to give her an opportunity to figure out what each cue meant and anticipate what would get the release.

it sorta worked. But the bosal (if I picked up the inside rein) puts pressure on the outside of her nose, and it was a little confusing for her I think. That’s why we just walked. No need to add speed till she’s consisitently understanding what each part of the cue means.

would you handle this differently?

[Bluey]

[QUOTE=threedogpack;6393502]
I rode the mare in it for the third time this afternoon. We only rode about 30 minutes, and only walk/turn/whoa.

By the second time I asked for a stop, I thought it, and raised my hand off her mane…and got the whoa. I’m sure there is some body language to go with all this, but whatever it is, it’s all good as I’m getting a far nicer mare from it.

So…question for you who have the wealth of knowledge. As has been noted before, when asking for a turn, using the bosal is not like a direct rein. What I did today, with mixed results was:

put my weight on the seatbone and in the stirrup of the direction I wanted to turn and gently laid my outside leg on her side

lay the rein on her neck as if I was going to neck rein

and if necessary pick up and bump with the inside rein.

In that order. Not all at once. I was trying to give her an opportunity to figure out what each cue meant and anticipate what would get the release.

it sorta worked. But the bosal (if I picked up the inside rein) puts pressure on the outside of her nose, and it was a little confusing for her I think. That’s why we just walked. No need to add speed till she’s consisitently understanding what each part of the cue means.

would you handle this differently?[/QUOTE]

You may want to think of keeping your weight in the middle and a tad on that ouside leg that you are using actively.
You still want your weight in the middle, not disturb the horse’s hind leg it will be turning on with it’s own weight there, but also not load the inside shoulder at all.

Using the reins from on top follows having taught the horse from the ground what picking a rein and following it means, a signal but not a pull or, as you noticed, the hackamore moved all crooked on it’s face.

Seems like you were trying to get the horse to turn as if it was wearing a sidepull not a bosal.

[threedogpack]

@Bluey;6393551

You may want to think of keeping your weight in the middle and a tad on that ouside leg that you are using actively.
You still want your weight in the middle, not disturb the horse’s hind leg it will be turning on with it’s own weight there, but also not load the inside shoulder at all.

in the beginning everything is exaggerated isn’t it?

Using the reins from on top follows having taught the horse from the ground what picking a rein and following it means, a signal but not a pull or, as you noticed, the hackamore moved all crooked on it’s face.

Seems like you were trying to get the horse to turn as if it was wearing a sidepull not a bosal.

well she didn’t respond in the beginning to anything OTHER than a pull on her face, so that is why that got used that way. I could keep doing ground work with her for another year, but I really want to .ride. the mare.

[Bluey]

[QUOTE=threedogpack;6393663]
in the beginning everything is exaggerated isn’t it?

well she didn’t respond in the beginning to anything OTHER than a pull on her face, so that is why that got used that way. I could keep doing ground work with her for another year, but I really want to .ride. the mare.[/QUOTE]

I hear you.:lol:

Ground work with a hackamore takes a few minutes before you get on, called “doubling”.

You may find some videos or articles on that, how to ask the horse to move it’s hind feet with little tugs of the reins and how to turn around over it’s hind end.

Here is one:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x2XVcQr97y4

Here you can see, about 3:12, where the rider’s weight is on the outside, letting the horse move over without that rider’s weight impeding.
Now, this rider is a bit less good with his releases, as you can see by how the horse has some obvious resistances:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oV3_8roWZn4&feature=related

(Those are the first videos I found.)

[threedogpack]

looks to me like you just have to ignore the mechanics of the bosal pressing on the outside of the face.

Ree does fine with giving me her face in a snaffle, but less so with the bosal. I’ll just give it a bit more time and see how it goes.

I’ll be back in a week or so if there aren’t more problems!

[Tamara_in_TN]

[QUOTE=threedogpack;6393502]

it sorta worked. But the bosal (if I picked up the inside rein) puts pressure on the outside of her nose, and it was a little confusing for her I think. That’s why we just walked. No need to add speed till she’s consisitently understanding what each part of the cue means.

would you handle this differently?[/QUOTE]

as you have noted the bosal is a “whole nuther dog”
I watched Bluey’s vid choice and I can say that I would not use both hands together to bump the face

nor would I let all that mess flop incessantly as he did to that mare.
Granted she was already broke in a snaffle BUT I promise in the snaffle they did not have all that flop going on

they need to move to heavier gear on the face in both a bigger diameter bosal and a heaver set of reins or at least for gawds sake no slopping around like water in a bucket…

.that teaches the thing nothing

anyway rant off…do some work from the ground on where her head should go when the bosal does <x> reward that.

mount up and bend at the whoa to <x> reward that. do that like 4 or 5 times…she’s not stupid I imagine and neither are you…

now remember my small meltdown about the one rein stop? THIS is where it was created and intended to be used as the horse CANNOT pull thru one rein in the bosal…

both hands back and pulling and the horse says “seeya!!!” but they cannot pull out of one hand tucked back to the knee… if the hackmore is on the bridge of the nose the cartilage pressure is the last of the emergency break system

now once mounted take off walking…:winkgrin:

horses learn nothing at the stop but being stopped…and you know how dressge types are always going on about going “forward” ? we’ll you gotta do it too…push her forward with your seat and legs and use the open leading rein to point her head where you want it…

as you have seen, being a snaffle bit horse is nothing like being a bosal horse…so you cannot try to neck rein her now…prob not for weeks

you need a stready light contact in each hand,not flopping and open and reach ouuuuuttttt to let her follow your hand…just like a brand new green baby horse

and push with your legs…you have already figured out whoa…

so now think about “go” and trust that even if the steering sucks for a few weeks you still got brakes:lol:

Tamara

[Bluey]

[QUOTE=Tamara in TN;6393712]
as you have noted the bosal is a “whole nuther dog”
I watched Bluey’s vid choice and I can say that I would not use both hands together to bump the face

nor would I let all that mess flop incessantly as he did to that mare.
Granted she was already broke in a snaffle BUT I promise in the snaffle they did not have all that flop going on

they need to move to heavier gear on the face in both a bigger diameter bosal and a heaver set of reins or at least for gawds sake no slopping around like water in a bucket…

.that teaches the thing nothing

anyway rant off…do some work from the ground on where her head should go when the bosal does <x> reward that.

mount up and bend at the whoa to <x> reward that. do that like 4 or 5 times…she’s not stupid I imagine and neither are you…

now remember my small meltdown about the one rein stop? THIS is where it was created and intended to be used as the horse CANNOT pull thru one rein in the bosal…

both hands back and pulling and the horse says “seeya!!!” but they cannot pull out of one hand tucked back to the knee… if the hackmore is on the bridge of the nose the cartilage pressure is the last of the emergency break system

now once mounted take off walking…:winkgrin:

horses learn nothing at the stop but being stopped…and you know how dressge types are always going on about going “forward” ? we’ll you gotta do it too…push her forward with your seat and legs and use the open leading rein to point her head where you want it…

as you have seen, being a snaffle bit horse is nothing like being a bosal horse…so you cannot try to neck rein her now…prob not for weeks

you need a stready light contact in each hand,not flopping and open and reach ouuuuuttttt to let her follow your hand…just like a brand new green baby horse

and push with your legs…you have already figured out whoa…

so now think about “go” and trust that even if the steering sucks for a few weeks you still got brakes:lol:

Tamara[/QUOTE]

Yeah, I hear you, I could not find a real cowboy handling a horse, those are the first ones I found that were not “wrong” all along.
At least they knew to shorten the inside rein before using it.

I do disagree in getting bigger bosals for those lighter horses.

Here is another one, this one talking about sizes.
Seems that all I can find is clinicians:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mScfr9h-bkE

I would think that there are also regional differences and personal preferences in what each person and horse work best with.

[threedogpack]

@Tamara in TN;6393712

as you have noted the bosal is a “whole nuther dog”
I watched Bluey’s vid choice and I can say that I would not use both hands together to bump the face

there is no need to bump her face at all, like I said, I “thought” whoa and had it with a lift of about 1".

nor would I let all that mess flop incessantly as he did to that mare.
Granted she was already broke in a snaffle BUT I promise in the snaffle they did not have all that flop going on

the mecate I’m using is not .nearly. as long as his is. Much shorter reins. I noticed that right off.

do some work from the ground on where her head should go when the bosal does <x> reward that.

I think I’m probably not asking for enough of a give anywhere (ground/on top). I’ll work on it.

now remember my small meltdown about the one rein stop? THIS is where it was created and intended to be used as the horse CANNOT pull thru one rein in the bosal…

both hands back and pulling and the horse says “seeya!!!” but they cannot pull out of one hand tucked back to the knee… if the hackmore is on the bridge of the nose the cartilage pressure is the last of the emergency break system

I’m no longer worried about her running through the bosal at all. My biggest issue today was getting her to turn (and not tight, big loose turns).

now once mounted take off walking…:winkgrin:

horses learn nothing at the stop but being stopped…and you know how dressge types are always going on about going “forward” ? we’ll you gotta do it too…push her forward with your seat and legs and use the open leading rein to point her head where you want it…

as you have seen, being a snaffle bit horse is nothing like being a bosal horse…so you cannot try to neck rein her now…prob not for weeks

but but but she was “getting” it! I have to quit?!

you need a stready light contact in each hand,not flopping and open and reach ouuuuuttttt to let her follow your hand…just like a brand new green baby horse

and push with your legs…you have already figured out whoa…

so now think about “go” and trust that even if the steering sucks for a few weeks you still got brakes:lol:

Tamara

I do got brakes, nice brakes. Better brakes than I ever had in the snaffle. Got less turn, but more brakes.

[Tamara_in_TN]

[QUOTE=threedogpack;6393738]

I do got brakes, nice brakes. Better brakes than I ever had in the snaffle. Got less turn, but more brakes.[/QUOTE]

brakes are 90% of riding;) rate with the seat and you can do anything!

but to use an indirect rein (neck) right now will fiddle with her understanding of bringing the shoulders around to make your bend

just an open leading line for now and work on combining your seat and hands into some big sweepy figure 8’s …just keep them big and soft…bigger and softer than you think you need to…I think you’ll do fine:)

Tamara

[threedogpack]

[QUOTE=Tamara in TN;6393872]
brakes are 90% of riding;) rate with the seat and you can do anything!

but to use an indirect rein (neck) right now will fiddle with her understanding of bringing the shoulders around to make your bend

just an open leading line for now and work on combining your seat and hands into some big sweepy figure 8’s …just keep them big and soft…bigger and softer than you think you need to…I think you’ll do fine:)

Tamara[/QUOTE]

k

[Tamara_in_TN]

[QUOTE=Bluey;6393722]
Yeah, I hear you, I could not find a real cowboy handling a horse, those are the first ones I found that were not “wrong” all along.
At least they knew to shorten the inside rein before using it.

I understand

I do disagree in getting bigger bosals for those lighter horses.

I think that heft and weight of the bigger bosals and heavier reins shows the young horse straight away where the face needs to go as well as the snugness of the bosal to the jaw…loose and moving up and down the nose with every stride will just make soreness where it is not needed (IMO)

… so there is a lot less bumping and flexing and such like that as the weight and balance of the bosal and the knots does most of the work.

I know you have seen enough baby colts with their first halters on (not rope but real leather) they spend the first part of that day with their noses tucked giving to the weight of the halter…it wears off after a day or so and forget about it

Tamara

[Bluey]

[QUOTE=Tamara in TN;6393889]

I understand

I think that heft and weight of the bigger bosals and heavier reins shows the young horse straight away where the face needs to go as well as the snugness of the bosal to the jaw…loose and moving up and down the nose with every stride will just make soreness where it is not needed (IMO)

… so there is a lot less bumping and flexing and such like that as the weight and balance of the bosal and the knots does most of the work.

I know you have seen enough baby colts with their first halters on (not rope but real leather) they spend the first part of that day with their noses tucked giving to the weight of the halter…it wears off after a day or so and forget about it

Tamara

I agree on the heavier reins, they do help the signals.

We handled all our foals from the first few hours for the first three weeks, then they were turned out, after foal heat was over.
We had halters and tail ropes and tried to never hold a foal, just barely guide them so they learned to give, not pull.
We mostly let them go at their own pace and more or less where they wanted.
We also tied them from the first few hours by their mothers, the lead really very loose.
Once we started them under saddle, our own foals were extremely easy to teach, they already knew the basics on the ground and it pays.

I have seen some ranches halter break their weanlings with a mini hackamore made out of softer rope than our grass rope ones and also already teach them to give with it as with a real one.

[Tamara_in_TN]

[QUOTE=threedogpack;6393879]
k :)[/QUOTE]

keep in mind that in the bosal it is not about the face…it’s about the seat and legs…

so if you know that she knows already about the legs and seat use that to give her familiar things to “settle” back into when teaching something new

also change the thinking of the bosal on her face as “pulling” her nose/lips like a snaffle does,but rather “pushing” her face (from the other side) over like your hands closes a door…

the same way we push them over to move away from our legs in something like lateral work…between the push on her face and the impulsion from behind you have a nice sweepy turn

Tamara

[Bluey]

A great way to learn the feel of what you are doing is to ride a horse someone has trained and under their guidance.
Don’t you have some reining/cutting trainer or some other that may know and give you a lesson on a suitable horse?

I feel that when we work on our own is a bit like reinventing the wheel, when it is sooooo easy to follow behind someone that already learned, horse and teacher.

In the end, the hackamore is not really that fine a tool to ride with or train, it is a step in the right direction, but doesn’t beat a snaffle for the more refined training.
It is good for a horse you have to stay off their mouth, injured or a colt with new teeth coming in, or when you are riding and working, but not exactly concentrating on training only.

As Tamara said several times now, riding a hackamore or most western horses that are well trained is about all of the rider’s aids, the hands and whatever you have at the end of reins one part of the whole you can phase out more and more the better trained the horse becomes.

In English riding, contact is more important and in racing, essential to the point of being considered “a fifth foot” at times.

[threedogpack]

@Tamara in TN;6394219

keep in mind that in the bosal it is not about the face…it’s about the seat and legs…

yep, got that from previous posts, and she does move off my leg well, she just gets stiff in the face if I ask for her nose.

[quoteso if you know that she knows already about the legs and seat use that to give her familiar things to “settle” back into when teaching something new
[/quote]

She knows, is compliant and understands my legs. Not my seat so much but we’re working on that and part of the learning process there is for ME as well. The mare is a whole different kettle’o’fish from my older mare. The older mare thought of people as speed bumps on her road to something, but when you got to the point of saying “hey! you gotta listen up here!” She acted surprised and paid attention. Then she could hear me and figure stuff out.

This mare…if you get after her much at all…she shuts down and just tries to get away. She’s not so good at trying different things to figure out what you want.

also change the thinking of the bosal on her face as “pulling” her nose/lips like a snaffle does,but rather “pushing” her face (from the other side) over like your hands closes a door…

the same way we push them over to move away from our legs in something like lateral work…between the push on her face and the impulsion from behind you have a nice sweepy turn

Tamara

that’s what I got from your last post. Glad I understood! She just has to give me her face no matter if it’s a snaffle or a bosal.

Thanks Tamara