Pardon the zoom and scribbles but this was taken just after her last trim. I don’t have another angle right now and it is hard to tell how flat it is here. But now I can lay a ruler across her sole and make contact almost all the way across. This is left front.
She got here with very tall and long feet, so the change from too much height and depth to not much at all has happened since I got her.
I’m looking at the few pictures I have of her and another horse I have that show their hooves somewhat. The other horse I think looked better when I had him at another farm with another farrier though his lifestyle barely changed. This horse looks better in some ways and worse in others obviously.
Gosh if this is partially due to my farrier’s trimming I’m going to be upset. They came highly recommended and I have seen other horses they do at my neighbor’s that look fine to me but I’m not a farrier and can only really point out very wrong things. Like this mare being so overdue at first.
How long has this farrier been trimming him?
The hinds are negative (RH) and flat (LH) NPA, which is almost always a trimming issue, and nearly always takes months, like full growth cycle-ish.
The LF has slight rotation, the RF doesn’t. You can tell because the LF has a widening distance between the face of P3, and the face of the hoof wall, as you go top to bottom. The RF is pretty darn equal top to bottom.
That said - what’s the deal with the 2 different LF rads? They almost look like they were taking with 2 different machines, or 2 different settings, or something. The 2nd one (3rd pic) shows a lot less deviation from the hoof wall, than the first pic does
It’s really unfortunate your vet didn’t mark the coronet band (though thankfully we can see it), and the true apex of the frog, to really see if there’s any sinking (I don’t think so, if any, maybe a tiny bit), and sole depth. Did the vet measure sole depth at all somehow?
I’ve had her here since December and this farrier has been doing her that whole time.
The appointment was a very long one so the vet is supposed to be measuring sole depth and sending those to me later. They became quite focused on the stifle when we found that. As far as the two left xrays, I included both because they do look so different. Same vet and machine but I think they may have changed some settings? If I recall, the first left xray was taken on the plastic board they use for solar xrays and the second was done on the wood block. My mare was drugged but wasn’t cooperating at first with standing still.
Edit: I’m pretty confident the labels are correct because her hinds are a bit bullnosed externally and her fronts are not. I think that’s reflected in the xrays so I don’t know why the two views of the front left are so different
Yes, those heels are run forward and well in front of the heel bulbs.
Well, now I’m freaking out a bit. I have one farrier telling me she’s about to punch through her sole and should probably be put down, another who is less concerned and said just to see what my regular guy says when he’s here next week, and a vet who didn’t comment on it much at all.
I’m not sure what to think or what to do really and this doesn’t even touch the stifle problem. Somehow the horse doesn’t seem all that lame considering everything going on but I’m sure she’s uncomfortable.
I am not a vet. I am not a farrier. So my opinion is not that of an expert. Even among experts, there’s a bit of art in reading x rays.
My interpretation of the films is rotation in left front and sinking in right front. My opinion is that the sinking would present as more painful. And that a stifle issue would cause the presentation of lameness to be skewed in the front feet as horse compensates for stifle; ditto for the angles in the hinds.
When my horse presented with sinking and rotation on his x rays, my vet provided specific farriery instructions / options. If my vet hadn’t done so, I would have employed the podiatrist vet in my area.
Jingles for you and your horse!
I would for sure ignore the farrier that said to put her down. Maybe you’ll get more clarity when you talk to your regular farrier.
Sometimes, if they are bi- laterally lame, it can be hard to tell how lame they really are. If one farrier is concerned about that, can you put her in a deeply bedded stall and leave her there until you get this sorted out?
She was definitely sore on both fronts so bilateral lameness makes sense.
I have her in padded boots in a deeper than normal stall plus small paddock turnout since stall rest is really hard to do here. I have softer pads in the mail. I’ll see about calling the big clinic about their podiatrist, I know they had one recently and I think he’s still there. I used one of his apprentices but they’re farther away, though if I could convince them to come out here it may be worth it.
thin soles yes. So close as to be imminently punching through? No. That was a pretty dramatic comment
You can’t fix the stifles until the hind NPAs are fixed. It will be working on both, at least as much as the comfort of her front feet allow. But the NPA can be fixed in a single trim with a properly applied shoe with some degree of wedge, while the trim is corrected which will take longer. Aligning her hind feet bones will help the stifles all on its own
The very first post has a shot of the left front that looks really questionable…I can see why a cautious farrier might express concern.
Generally speaking, the prognosis for sinking founder is rather poor. From my own experience, I am unlikely to attempt rehab on another case. I could imagine a farrier interpreting those films as I did, and making that statement.
I agree that one of the LF images was more alarming than the other.
Here is a video by an Auburn U. vet or the ability of the horse’s foot to reform.
It is a long video, so if you want to fast forward, the video shows a horse with a coffin bone that has rotated thru sole that starts at 34:00. This horse’s coffin bones rotated on all 4 feet.
At 39:00 she presents the results for 39 obese, laminitic horses, with rotation and showed that the increase of frog pressure could decrease the rotation. She discusses the effect of trim, exercise, boots, etc.
In the rest of the video Dr. Debra Taylor describes a lot of detail of the hoof anatomy, and weight bearing and how horses’ feet can change in response to external factors.
Dr. Debra Taylor is a researcher at Auburn U. vet school is studying the “reforming” of the horse’s hoof as a response to stress and loading. She shows a foundered, rotated and pierced sole brought back to alignment.
So it turns out that the reason the first shot looks different is because it’s on a downhill (toward the toe) slant. The plastic box they had her on for that xray is hollow and the middle is lower than the sides with the screws you can see in the image. I’m not discounting how weird it looks but I think it is a deceiving angle. The alternate X-ray on the wood block is more real I think.
That is very good news!!!
Update: bad news about the stifle.
My vet sent the stifle ultrasounds to the vet school and they agreed that what is going on in there is pretty bad and severe enough that it’s hard to tell if it’s the ligament or meniscus that is most affected. I’m looking at $5k to do another ultrasound and exploratory surgery (arthroscopic I think), with prognosis for riding guarded no matter what and EXTREMELY guarded if the meniscus is involved. That’s before doing stem cells or IRAP or cleaning up any fraying I think.
It’s unclear whether she got here like this or exacerbated an issue since arriving. She really was getting better and stronger up until the last month or so but never came in limping lame. She still isn’t limping lame now probably because everything hurts equally. Her xrays are clear, and outside of some general track soreness I didn’t see any reason to ultrasound everything on a basic PPE.
I am not sure what to do here.
I’m so sorry.
That’s a pretty awful combination of issues in a 6 year old.
Is just turning her out for a while or retiring her as a pasture pet feasible for you?
Okay, thank goodness. I’ve been following this thread, and I thought I was going crazy. I kept looking at that x-ray vs the other LF x-ray and thinking it HAD to be something to do with what she was standing on.
So sorry about the stifle news though. Gosh. I have no words of wisdom, but I hope for the best for her and you.
If I sold my one riding horse, I could retire her. Things changed somewhat since getting her, putting more pressure on her and the other horse to be useful in some way. I already have a couple retirees that aren’t going anywhere.
It’s a shame really. I think the injury might have happened initially at the track and when she didn’t heal up with stall rest she was chucked out until the owner decided to just get rid of her. She’s so sweet and loves her people - kids most of all - but she does crib, is a harder keeper, and with her feet she has things going on that make her a questionable rehome as a therapy horse or pasture pet.
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