Update p122: good news/bad news. Is this founder? Xrays included

I am a veterinarian/farrier who specializes in equine podiatry. Whenever I hear this type of scenario where the horse was going fine and then suddenly has sore feet that get progressively sorer, I ALWAYS assume hyperinsulinemia until proven otherwise. I am not seeing any insulin values listed here, but I may have missed them somehow. I know others have chimed in about insulin resistance. It should be the first test, an dplease do the right test (see below).

Insulin causes “laminitis” in a different way than other forms of laminitis. It is better termed laminopathy because it is not an inflammatory process. It seems that elevated insulin in the blood leads to a slow degredation of the laminar cells. Secondary lamina cells (the ones that hold the coffin bone to the hoof wall) do not die, but these cells stretch and become long and thin and weakened. On radiographs you may see a widening of the luscent zone just in front of the coffin bone as the laminae stretch. This zone represent the thickness of the lamina, and it should be straight from top to bottom and should be less thick than the more opaque hoof wall.

Unfornuately vets almost always fail to put a metal marker on the dorsal wall, which leaves you guessing. Many vets claim that with digital radiography you don’t need to mark the wall, because the computer can compensate. This is wrong. The xray beam must be strong enough to penetrate the thickest part of the foot, and this results in gross overexposure out at the dorsal wall where the beam is barely passing through much hoof material all. The plate records no change in beam strength as it passes through this bit of wall, so there is just no digital record of any wall being there. The computer can’t invent more wall out of thin air.

So in this case, the lamina luscent zone looks as wide as the hoof wall which would be concerning, but I can guarantee that we are not seeing the full thickness of the wall on the radiograph. So is there laminae stretching or swelling or not? We can’t say because of the lack of a marker on the wall. Further, in a true acute rotation, you’ll typically see a black line develop between the lamina zone and the hoof wall zone and this is blood and serum accumulating where the lamina have separated from the wall. We don’t see this here.

Here the lamina appear wider at the bottom than the top, which people are call “rotation,” but the coffin bone dorsal face also in concave in teh same area and sometimes what appears to be a wedge shape to the lamina that would indicate rotation is actually coffin bone resorption resulting from poor blood flow.

In hyperinsulinemic “laminitis” you typically will have a slow weakening and stretching of lamina over several years. It goes undiagnosed, and often if testing is done, it’s not the proper accurate test (oral sugar test-OST) so the horse might be called “normal” when it’s not. READ THE ACTUAL TEST RESULT FORM. It will tell you that, for baseline blood draws, insulin levels in the “normal” range are NON-DIAGNOSTIC. For "normal"values, the lab invariably will recommend running the more accurate OST in these cases. Almost no one ever does. But be clear, unless you run the OST Karo syrup test, a normal result is meaningless. You should not rely on that and think your horse is proven “normal.”

These horses will smolder for years, occassionally having flare-ups (any stress from asthma to Lyme will further increase insulin). Trimming a horse with weak lamina is a stress event, as it forces a horse to overload one front foot for several minutes at a time. When was the last time you saw a horse out in the pasture standing normall on one front foot?

These feet might show a darker yellow “white line” over time, or spots of old blood. The farrier might say the feet “don’t seem right” but cannot pin down why he/she thinks that. Sometimes you se obvious growth rings. Something the feet, especially TB’s, will have the appearance of have slumped and just sort of puddled out on the ground liek an underbaked cake.

Eventually the lamina do get weak enough that they fail and you have true rotation and true laminitis. I’ve seen this happen just from a single 30-mile trail ride. (The horse was tested and diagnosed with PPID and IR only after she rotated.) But the truth is that failure was happening long before this finally event.

Ion another front, deal sole depth should be around 15-18mm which is generally close to the wall thickness. Here you appear to have thin soles. I’ve seen worse, but these are not adequate. This again can point to poor blood flow to the sole corium that creates the sole. The one farrier thought the coffin bone was about to come though because the xray beam was not horizontal. Hence some of the foot is below and overlaying the block and hard to see. What he saw was the apex of the coffin bone almost touching the block because the angle of the beam overlaid some of the sole with the block. I can understand why he was freaked out by this illusion.

You noted a problem with thrush, which can make a horse appear foot-sore but can also cause a horse to overload the toe area, and with thin soles this can be another cause of pain. It could also result in more compression of the sole corium and even more reduction of sole growth.

In the end though, with rapid onset of foot-soreness that does not quickly recover I ALWAYS test blood insulin. first. The Oral Sugar Test with Karo Light syrup is the only truly reliable field test. Any type of baseline blood draw will result in 1 in 5 or more horses being deemed “normal” when they are not. Even when running the Karo syrup test, you must follow all of the guidelines to the letter in terms of when you can feed the night before, what time of day you draw blood, and how far before the test any exercise is permitted. Exercise the afternoon before will lower insulin values on your test and could cause you to think an insulin dysregulated horses was better than he really was.

A cause of insulin dysregulation is PPID so if the horse were 10 or older I’d test for that as well, because you won’t control insulin if you don’t control the Cushings as well. 25% of horse 15yo old or older have PPID and 50% end up in a laminitic state eventually.

The last thing to add to the complications I will say is that we know in humans that insulin resistance leads to neuropathy. While not yet proven in horses, there is a real chance that some of these “footy” insulin-resistant horses are uncormfortable not because of their pathologic lamina but because of nerve pain, that is pain from sick nerves. One sign might be the horse who gets worse in the cold instead of better. Stay tuned as we learn more on that.

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Wow. Thank you so much for your input.

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@Horsepoetry, thank you for such an informative, brilliant post. Are you published anywhere? If you’d rather not say publicly, please pm me. I have an older TB gelding who has had a bout of laminitis. I am incredibly fortunate to have a very good farrier and good veterinary care. I still try to learn as much as possible independently.

Thank you so much for taking the time to educate us! One of my horses is insulin resistant and was recently diagnosed with PPID, so I appreciate the opportunity to learn more about these conditions.

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Wow, thanks for the input!

We have not tested insulin, but the horse is 6 years old. She went from insanely long feet to very short feet according to the vet, but even now after only a rolling of the wall she’s sore on bare feet in the barn aisle. She is pretty much sound in shoes and pads.

Hi, actually I apologize for butting in and leaving such a long post, but after seeing so many missed cases with catastrophic endings, or at least a lot of anguish for the horse and the owner and me too, I just feel like it’s time to educate owners instead of fight with other vets about what proper testing and interpretation is. I’m not saying anything that the equine endocrinology specialists and testing labs aren’t saying. It just doesn’t seem to have filtered into everyday practice for so many vets.

89% of equine deaths are related to foot disease, yet I so frequently see horses that never get tested for IR or PPID until after they have a major laminitic event. And in some of these cases the owner asked the vet if she should test and was told “no, your horse is normal.”

I also see a lot of owners paying for standard baseline testing and being told their horse is “normal” when even the testing lab states clearly on the results form that the insulin value is non-diagnostic and a more accurate test is needed to make any determination.

Inevetiably I ask to see the test results and have to say, these normal results tell you nothing, and I read them the actual statement on the test form.

If you get a high insulin value on any test that’s a confirmation you have a problem, which is the only time when a baseline test is of value. It can rule IN an insulin dysregulated horse but it cannot rule out… Any other value on a baseline blood draw means “we really don’t know if your horse is normal or in trouble. If you suspect a problem run the more accurate test.”

For what it’s worth, I am veterinarian in the Bend Oregon area. I do a lot of barefoot trimming, composite shoeing and gluing. I love foot cases, hate colics and lacerations and all that stuff. I happen to think specializing in feet is a worthy way to be an equine vet. Lets face it, vets can’t know everything about everything, and we shouldn’t expect that. I see so many vets ignore subtle foot problems or just misinterpret results.

Catching these problems early, like years earlier, is really one of the best things we can do for our horses. Supplements are expensive and likely not going to save your horse’s life. So I plead with people, just save back enough $ to be able to do an IR and PPID test every couple of years. The earlier you catch these problems, the more likely you are to save your horse’s life or at least save a lot of heartache. It’s money well spent.

So lets talk about that. I’m a veterinarian who developed an interest in hooves my first year in school, so went to farrier school AFTER vet school.I haven’t written any books (yet), and I am not a famous researcher.

But I do pay attention to those guys. Dr. Van Epps in a talk at New Bolton recently said that once the lamina degrade, they will never fully return to their previous healthy undiseased state. That should cause every horse owner to pause for a shiver to run up their spine.

“Is my horse slowly sliding at a glacial pace 24/7 into further and further lamina degredation that can never be fully corrected?” I don’t know about you, but that would keep me up at night. I’d rather “waste” money and get an “all clear” test result than just sit and wait for a catastrophic event to be the first time I really thought my horse could have a smoldering insulin problem.

Sure you can manage these horses if caught later with good trimming and sometimes some necessary “orthotic devices” along the way, but once the damage is done you are never going completely back to healthy feet, no matter how pretty they look on the outside.

And that is what makes this so important. Most horses get identified as IR and/or PPID after a serious event, which means they may have had ongoing lamina deterioration over months and years. The “slow glacial slide” I call it. If you interview the owner closely they will relate knowing “something was wrong” for a long time before anyone really took it seriously. “He’s just thin-soled.” “He’s just ouchy for a few days after trims. That’s normal for him.”

So my take home message is listen to those subtle messages your horse is telling you. And seriously if your horse is more than willing to pick up his feet for the trimmer but then after 30 seconds is rearing back and snatching his feet and “misbehaving,” but then is perfectly willing to pick the foot up again like a good boy, he might be sending you a very clear message the best way he knows how, which is try for as long as he can until he just can’t any longer. In my book anymore that’s not just bad behavior.

Again sorry for the long post. I can’t seem to be succinct. But this is something I am passionate about, getting the word out.

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I really, REALLy appreciate your posts. I test insulin and ACTH pretty regularly….or at least, I try to. The vet closest to me actually makes fun of me for it. I asked last fall and got a resounding “no”. I should have asked another practice.

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@Horsepoetry thank you so much for these great posts!!

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@Horsepoetry, are there any supplements you do think help, in one way or another? Thank you.

Well, I am going to be evasive. I am not sure what The Chronicle allows in terms of promoting or bashing commercial products. You have probably seen tons of products. Magnesium, chromium. zinc, copper, selenium are common in most of them. Those are all important minerals anyway regardless of IR… Maybe there is some evidence in human medicine they can help with insulin sensitivity, but we should be providing these in a good balanced diet anyway.

There are a number of herbs as well as quercetin and resveratrol that may have a bit research behind them, but my skepticism is that the dosages just seem random and not near large enough.

So I like to think on a more basic level. First, yes, make sure you have adequate and appropriate nutrition (less than 10% NSC) which is going to include a goood ration balancer and assuring that all the mineral requirements are met.

Then, exercise and reducing fat are essential and are going to be far more effective than any special supplement. Fat plays a big role in creating insulin resistance. Excerise not only helps eliminate fat, but it also seems to effect AMP Kinase, a big player in metabolism in general. Metformin and Thyro-L also play a role in AMP Kinase as well. So this may be the underlying reason we these end up seeming to help with IR.

Beyond that, exercise is helpful because muscle is the biggest user of insulin in the body. Track systems are popular because its a simple way for horses to be active and exercising without having to be hand-walked and longed.

Beyond those three things-adequate minerls, exercise and elimination of fat deposits, any form of inflammation is going to raise cortisol levels as well as insulin. So a healthy diet full of antioxidants and omega-3 fatty acids is going to be helpful as is treating any contributors to inflammation such as Lyme disease, equine asthma (30% don’t show an clinical signs!) or anything else your vet can think to test for in your area.

Any form of stress whether physical or emotional will also increasse cortisol and insulin. Again track systems not only promote exercise and fat loss, they can lead to stress reduction in the horse’s life.

Remember insulin resistance and equiine metabolic syndrome are NOT diseases. In an emergency situation of high insulin and raging laminitis, yes special drugs can be useful. However mostly we are dealing with a mismatch between genetics and modern “luxury” horse living! Insulin resistance is actually an advantage in the wild as an IR mammal is more likely to cary a fetus to term as the blood glucose is spared in the mother’s body so the fetus can use it.

So I’d rather see this all managed holstically, meaning through lifestyle changes as much as possible-a top notch diet that is species-appropriate (so NSC below 10%, minimal grains), lots of constant exercise, reduction in fat (which was caused by a species-inappropriate lifestyle), and elimination of sources of stress and inflammation as much as possible.

I think that is a smarter more holistic way to deal with what is really a lifestyle problem, not a disease. Equine metabolic syndrome was coined because that set of signs and symproms predicts a higher risk for laminitis, not because it’s a disease in and of itself. This is why we call it a syndrome instead of a disease. Horses don’t die from EMS; they die from developing laminitis.

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Ok, well one shout-out for JiaoGu Lan. This is something the ECIR group heavily promotes. They promote it for improved blood flow into the foot, thinking this could help with healing after laminitic damage.

Oddly though, when you look this herb up for human diabetics it’s actually promoted because it seems to help with insulin sensitivity, meaning it corrects insulin resistance. This to me seems a more logical reason that it might be helpful in laminitis, lowering insulin, rather than promoting blood flow.

The fact that there does seem to be some research behind it’s insulin effects, it could be worth trying instead of metformin or piaglitazone, since those drugs are used for the same reason. Metformin seems to lose effect over several months. I know the ECIR group feels they have had luck with Jiao Gu Lan, and they aren’t selling it as a proprietary herbal supplement as far as I know, so don’t have any financial stake in wanting you to buy it.

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Do you have any advice on how to administer Jiao Gu Lan, dosage, etc?

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As with all of these herbals there are no fixed dosages, and in fact the product seems to be completely different depending on who you purchase from. ECIR recommends 1/2 tsp once a day while others say start low and work up to 2g twice a day. Dried herbals are going to differ wildly in the amount of active in ingredients even batch-to-batch from the same company.

I have a background in human Chinese medicine so I’d look for something green and fresh smelling. My Best Horse has been recommended for a fresh green dried product. Apparently some of this stuff comes in a dried brown form that smells more like tea and is considered a “concentrate.” That doesn’t make it worse, but dosages could be very different.

You are looking for pinker mucous membranes (such as gums) to indicate you are giving enough. It promotes nitrous oxide which is a vasodilator so creates better blood flow.

I personally think you actually want it for the insulin sensitizing effects instead of the vasodilation.

But, full disclosure, it’s trial and error, dosages will differ with where you get the product, and technically it’s “quack medicine” without a lot of scientific validation or established dosages. That is not to discourage it, just to say there are no real “knowns” other than what people think has worked for them.

You can see why many vets shy away from recommending any of this stuff because we are trained to know why it works and exactly what the established recommended dosages are after thorough testing. We don’t have any of that with Jiao Gu Lan in horses. We don’t even have good reliable chemical analysis from batch-to-batch to know what would be an approriate
amount of a product, even if we knew what a proven safe baseline chemical dose should be. Frustrating. Thankfully, Jiao Gu Lan appears to be a pretty safe herb for horses.

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@Horsepoetry OP’s mare is 6, a TB, and underweight on a “regular” calorie diet. Do you often see insulin issues in that kind of horse? I’m sure it happens, but it sounds uncommon to me. The test doesn’t appear to be expensive so it’s likely a good investment, either way.

To me, not a vet, it sounds like a case of mechanical compromise of the foot first and probably an imperfectly balanced diet on the track that hasn’t had time to build a proper foot. But if it’s really an insulin issue, that would certainly be shocking to people around here!

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Recommending or critiquing products is fairly central to chronicle forum. However, you cannot promote your own product or one where you are receiving a financial kickback. Sharing that you love a product or have reservations is completely accepted.

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Thank you for all of the above, again!!!

It can definitely happen. My horse is EMS and his insulin was dysregulated causing him to hold onto his stall rest chub and then some despite being fed a lower sugar and reduced calorie diet. We used canagliflozin to regulate his insulin and get the weight off. Coming into summer, he was trending towards losing too much weight. I was debating taking him off the meds for summer anyway (it causes a lot more urine output and I was worried about dehydration, among some other things).

I took a poll of my vet and some others who had IR horse clients. As well as an internal medicine specialist. Because while I hoped that getting rid of the fat would get my horse’s insulin response under control, I knew there was a possibility it would go back up (he also has asthma and some arthritis, although he’s never shown foot pain). They all said it was likely his baseline insulin would increase. His was never in the for sure positive range at baseline, but he did fail the Karo syrup test, with an off the charts spike that did not come down after 90 minutes. The internal medicine specialist recommended that I try discontinuing the drug to avoid having to increase the food ration. It is easy enough to start it up again. The other vets tended to lean towards increasing food via a higher protein source and keeping him on the meds.

One vet said she has one IR horse who is downright underweight. They use one of the other -gliflozin drugs on that one. That horse is prone to hyperinsulin laminitis. They can’t take the horse off the meds without a dangerous increase in insulin. It is a struggle to feed the horse enough for general body condition.

The studies on the -gliflozin drugs also do mention other horses like this. Ones that are not controlled without medications, but who have to also eat a larger ration also to try to maintain acceptable weight. So those horses do exist. I’d guess if you also have PPID going on, then that scenario might be more common than just EMS/IR alone.

I did wind up stopping the meds. His insulin did go up some. He put on about 10-15lbs of mostly muscle from the lowest weight point (ETA - lowest weight was a 120lb loss from fatty mcfatterson status), and he has been maintaining that (we have a livestock scale at the farm). He looks and feels great. We may have to resume the meds when the seasonal spike in insulin occurs in the winter, but in the meantime we are monitoring him.

I also knew one other TB who was semi-retired when he came to my barn because he was labeled as dangerous and unpredictable to ride. Owner was in college. Typical harder keeper TB even out of work. At one point, he developed laminitis. The X-rays revealed chronic low grade laminitis for a very long time. Possibly the entire time he’d been “unpredictable”. But otherwise seemingly not clinical, until it was. He did not recover. I felt so sorry for him and his owner.

The sugar test is super simple to do, and while you have to give a LOT of Karo syrup, at least it’s fairly tasty to them.

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Yes, I agree. Ruling out high insulin is always just a good starting point, and once ruled out you can then focus on less scary possibilities.

As to mechanical issues, that is the point I am trying to stress. Lots of horses have poor hoof care and don’t experience major issues in terms of pain and lameness from “mechanical issues.” Others flare up with pain at the slightest change.

In my opinion the latter case is not normal, and should be investigated for an underlying problem besides just a bad trim.

We really are in the infancy of understanding any of this. Sure EMS is widely recognized, but there seem to be outlyers who don’t fit the classic signalment-older, overweight and instead are young without fat-deposits. Do they have laminiopathy, neuropathy? Do they have spikes in insulin, but not true ongoing hyperinsulinemia. Do these spikes have a pathological consequence ro the laminae? We don’t know.

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Can someone talk more about this? Is it related to the ACTH seasonal rise? I’ve not been able to locate research on this. Thank you!

Thanks. Great post from real world experience.

On these hyperinsulinemic horses that are underweight I’ve had luck with coconut meal such as Cool Stance. It’s low in starch and sugar but high in protein and fat and supposedly is antiinflammatory. Most horses love the stuff and it makes a great mash for hiding pills and powders.

Yep, the dose of Karo is around 7ml per hundred pounds. The trick is only giving 25ml at a time so they can swallow it and not drool it out all over your shirt and mess up the test.

There is a lot we don’t know. So yes there are these underweight horses that technically don’t fit the EMS picture. In my opinion a vet cannot merely look at a horse and rule out high insulin or PPID. Horses who are ouchy after small modifications to shoeing and trimming should be investigated for insulin as well as other tendon/ligament/joint issues if insulin is ruled out.

The gliflozin drugs were disgned for humans with diabetes. Horses with high insulin are the opposite of diabetes. Diabetics have low insulin and develop high blood glucose. It’s the high glucose that can cause longterm problems for them, though low insulin seems to cause some issues as well. Nerves need insulin binding apparently in order to stay healthy.

Horses have high insulin but normal glucose, not low insulin with high glucose.

Gliflosin drugs work by increasing the amount of glucose the kidneys eliminate in the urine. If you are a diabetic who sufers from high blood glucose, that makes a lot of sense.

In a horse with high insulin but normal glucose, lowering the glucose even further to try to lower insulin doesn’t make much sense. In general the horses doesn’t have unusually high insulin because of too much glucose, but because they are IR and the insulin is not working. What we want is better insulin sensitivity, not below normal blood glucose.

But these drugs do work so for an emergency situation where the insulin is at 200 even with diet change and the feet are sore, it can be a life saver.

You are right that is there is more glucose in the utine there will be more water loss as well so dehydration could be something to worry about. I’d be worried about hypoglycemia as well, though I don’t see vets seeming to be concerned about this. I am.

But ultimately changing the lifestyle in terms of more exercise on a daily basis (if the feet can take it), eliminating any body fat(fat hormonally influences cortisol levels as well as insulin sensitivity), controllling sources of stress and inflammation should be what gets you control in the long run.

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