UPDATE - RIP Shade - words can`t describe the loss

[Houndhill]

[QUOTE=RottiMom;6890423]
Houndhill I was totally with you until my intact female rotti developed bone cancer. I have had 16 rottis and the past 12 had been spayed and neutered after their breeding duties were done. Because of recent developments in studies I have listened to the breeders and left my current females intact. This is my first dog with cancer, and she is intact. I am seriously considering spaying my other girls now. I have a lot of things to think about.

Regarding your above comment on humans, thats totally not relevant here. Are you seriously saying that intact humans have less chance of cancer? Please tell that to my best friend who is dying of breast cancer at age 44. Or how about my mother who passed away at age 58 with colon cancer. Oh, and my sister in law who was just diagnosed with lymphoma.[/QUOTE]
No no no Rottimom, I am so very sorry, you are seriously misinterpreting what I was trying to say!

I was trying to get people to put themselves in the position of their dogs, with dog risks, etc., thinking maybe it would be easier to be clear. Not at all saying that these were the risks for humans.

I have lost 12 IWs to bone cancer, most were intact, it comes with the breed. However, research suggests that removal of the gonadal hormones about doubles the risk of bone cancer. It is not that intact Rotties or wolfhounds aren’t going to get it, they are at great risk and definitely do get it in great numbers…but the chances are increased if they are s/n.

[Houndhill]

[QUOTE=libgrrl;6890315]
Rotties and Goldens tend to have incredibly high rates of cancer regardless. I’m still not convinced that it transfers to the general (often mixed breed) population.[/QUOTE]

Of course it doesnt, that is my point! You’ve got to look at your particular bitch and her risks.

[Simkie]

Just curious, and perhaps Squish can answer–can an open pyo become closed as hormones adjust following the heat cycle? Is this something the OP should be aware of and watch for in the 6 weeks the vet would like to treat the dog before a spay?

[Houndhill]

[QUOTE=SquishTheBunny;6890319

However, 1 in 4 intact females will develop pyometera regardless of breed
Im almost 100% certain 1 in 4 large breed dogs (spayed or intact) will not develop bone cancer.

Pyo is usually treatable, bone cancer, hamangiosarcoma, etc…much less so.

But, it ceratainly depends upon the breed and its particular susceptibility to the various types of cancer. IWs track greyhounds, Rotties Danes, Goldens, Bernese Mountain dogs, and others, have a high enough incidence of gonadal steroid sensitive cancers that it makes sense to consider this.

Or geographic considerations…like Scandinavian residence.

[cnigh]

[QUOTE=Simkie;6890468]
Just curious, and perhaps Squish can answer–can an open pyo become closed as hormones adjust following the heat cycle? Is this something the OP should be aware of and watch for in the 6 weeks the vet would like to treat the dog before a spay?[/QUOTE]

I am worried about the cervix sweeling shut. I have been wiping her down there checking for discharge. She is still dribbling, so still open for now at least.

[Houndhill]

What is the discharge like?

One thing I would do is take her temp twice a day. Sometimes, but not always, they will show a rise in temp.

What antibiotics is she on?

[Houndhill]

Dogs ( and other canids) are unique among animals as they have no luteolytic agent, ie, the corpus luteum on the ruptured follicle of the ovary keeps on secreting progesterone whether the bitch is pregnant or not. Hormones do not “adjust” following the heat cycle, progesterone levels rise around ovulation and remain high for the nine weeks following estrus. In many other species, the CL is inactivated if the female is not pregnant, and progesterone levels drop after estrus unless the individual is pregnant.

[SquishTheBunny]

To be honest Im not sure about the timing of an open pyo becoming closed. Inflammation will happen when infection is present, so if the antibiotics are not doing their job or the infection is too great I would think there is risk of the drainage stopping. A bit of a catch 22 because drainage could stop because the infection is clearing, or it is closing up. I think the biggest concern along the way would be sepsis. Since she is currently on antibiotics hopefully this chance has deminished. Often sepsis results from a closed pyo, but can certainly happen with a continuous open pyo.

Any sign of lethargy, not eating or elevated temperature and you should have her medically stabilized for surgery asap. Once septic, many dogs succumb to the illness.

[Cartier]

I think there are pros and cons no matter what choice you make. In addition to the horses, we breed and show Dobermans. Arthur (hubby) is an OBGYN… surgery is part of daily life. He and I would never do a spay simply as a means of birth control, or for our convenience. We have intact bitchs and males, and have never had an unwanted pregnancy. There was a time not so long ago when some vets were trying to do spay neuters on puppies under 6 months of age. Makes me cringe. When we have a bitch spayed, we like to wait till at least a year, if not longer. We typically pay about $350 for a spay.

After years of no problems, about a year ago we had a 9 month-old Doberman bitch develop Pyometra. She was a bitch we wanted the option to show, so we were hesitant to spay her if it wasn’t absolutely necessary. Vets in our local area all said that there was only had one treatment option, which was to spay her. We knew that was simply not true, so we drove over 100 miles to our repro vet, who treated her with Baytril, Clavamox and Lutalyse injections. (the entire protocol cost about $650 or so). She was fine. 8 months later, after her next season, which was normal, we had her spayed, because by then we had determined that she was not what we wanted as a show dog or breeding animal. She is now in a wonderful companion home.

I understand people wanting to spay their bitchs, and I totally understand leaving them intact. But I would not do an elective surgical procedure simply for the convenience of the neighbors, or loose dogs or as a form of birth control. As an adult, I am responsible to provide a safe, healthy environment for the creatures I own. If my living situation is such that large intact dogs were not allowed… I would forego having large intact dogs until I could provide a better environment, rather than force a spay.

Surgery is surgery… there are always risks, and the surgical skills of veterinarians vary considerably.

Even great vets can have patients who surprise them. Recently we decided to have a healthy 4 year old bitch spayed. She had previously had a bowel obstruction surgery with no problem. The spay surgery almost killed her. Our vet had to go back in three times to clamp off bleeders, and recovery took well over a month. The “routine” spay surgery and the complications almost killed her, and cost close to $1,400.00. We have a ten year-old intact bitch, who’s never been sick a day in her beautiful life.

[Houndhill]

[QUOTE=Bluey;6890422]
I don’t think that is a good way to compare at all.

I have been in dogs 40 years, giving lessons and putting on performance competitions with our dog club and can say that very few of the spayed females had any problems, but several of the intact ones had serious problems that pyometra and breast cancer are.
Plus living with a female that goes in heat and all that, like unwelcome suitors baying at the door.

For the general population, that won’t keep their females guarded enough, add to that all the unwanted puppies that will result from not spaying.

Increasing the chances of a cancer common in some breeds?
That is not even worth considering very long, sorry.[/QUOTE]

Bluey, are you even going to know what health issues the dogs in your classes may have, such as hypothyroidism or spayed bitch incontinence, or those issues that may develop after a dog takes your class? I take it you have not had any of the at risk breeds in your classes?

I do certainly agree that clueless irresponsible owners should never attempt to maintain an intact dog or bitch. The last thing we need is unwanted puppies, or people who would not properly supervise a bitch in heat. Such owners, in my opinion, should not own any dog, but I suppose the least damage done would be to restrict them to ownership of only spayed or neutered animals.

[Houndhill]

[QUOTE=Cartier;6890573]
I think there are pros and cons no matter what choice you make. In addition to the horses, we breed and show Dobermans. Arthur (hubby) is an OBGYN… surgery is part of daily life. He and I would never do a spay simply as a means of birth control, or for our convenience. We have intact bitchs and males, and have never had an unwanted pregnancy. There was a time not so long ago when some vets were trying to do spay neuters on puppies under 6 months of age. Makes me cringe. When we have a bitch spayed, we like to wait till at least a year, if not longer. We typically pay about $350 for a spay.

After years of no problems, about a year ago we had a 9 month-old Doberman bitch develop Pyometra. She was a bitch we wanted the option to show, so we were hesitant to spay her if it wasn’t absolutely necessary. Vets in our local area all said that there was only had one treatment option, which was to spay her. We knew that was simply not true, so we drove over 100 miles to our repro vet, who treated her with Baytril, Clavamox and Lutalyse injections. (the entire protocol cost about $650 or so). She was fine. 8 months later, after her next season, which was normal, we had her spayed, because by then we had determined that she was not what we wanted as a show dog or breeding animal. She is now in a wonderful companion home.

I understand people wanting to spay their bitchs, and I totally understand leaving them intact. But I would not do an elective surgical procedure simply for the convenience of the neighbors, or loose dogs or as a form of birth control. As an adult, I am responsible to provide a safe, healthy environment for the creatures I own. If my living situation is such that large intact dogs were not allowed… I would forego having large intact dogs until I could provide a better environment, rather than force a spay.

Surgery is surgery… there are always risks, and the surgical skills of veterinarians vary considerably.

Even great vets can have patients who surprise them. Recently we decided to have a healthy 4 year old bitch spayed. She had previously had a bowel obstruction surgery with no problem. The spay surgery almost killed her. Our vet had to go back in three times to clamp off bleeders, and recovery took well over a month. The “routine” spay surgery and the complications almost killed her, and cost close to $1,400.00. We have a ten year-old intact bitch, who’s never been sick a day in her beautiful life.[/QUOTE]

Thank you!! Wonderful, sane perspective!!

[cowboymom]

I have a dog that was spayed at 7 weeks old in the shelter and somehow she has lived to be 13… (she’s had an accident prone life) and she not only had false heats her first few years but now she has incontinence, very mild and she tries to handle herself, but definite problems. Through some circumstances I ended up with two dogs that were spayed after a few heat cycles and they’ve been healthy and forward since but haven’t hit “old age” yet; one is just 4 and one is 9 but no problems to date. <knock wood> I’m not a huge fan of the early surgery but if you can’t guarantee securing the dog to prevent puppies and being able to handle the hassle I think the surgery is preferable to postponing for the wrong reasons.

[SquishTheBunny]

Houndhill, just wondering, do you breed your IW’s? I have a friend who lives a few hours north of me who breeds them and has for the past 15 or so years. None of hers have had bone cancer apparently. Do you think its just linked to the gonads, or could there be genetic play as well? I know many IW’s are inbred to some extent and wondering if it could be more linked to certain lines?

[Houndhill]

We have an ongoing study to look at DNA markers for osteo, but I have worked with a number of lines, including several Canadian ones, and if I knew of one free of osteosarcoma, believe me, I would be all over that! I would be interested if you would like to PM me your friends name. I have been in the breed 43 years now.

I think, if you are in it long enough, sooner or later you will see everything.

[Houndhill]

Oh yes, sorry Squish, forgot to mention, yes, we have gone through several genetic bottlenecks and have a small gene pool. All iWs are related approximately as much as cousins, so it is doubtful there is a bone cancer free line.

[Bluey]

[QUOTE=Houndhill;6890581]
Bluey, are you even going to know what health issues the dogs in your classes may have, such as hypothyroidism or spayed bitch incontinence, or those issues that may develop after a dog takes your class? I take it you have not had any of the at risk breeds in your classes?

I do certainly agree that clueless irresponsible owners should never attempt to maintain an intact dog or bitch. The last thing we need is unwanted puppies, or people who would not properly supervise a bitch in heat. Such owners, in my opinion, should not own any dog, but I suppose the least damage done would be to restrict them to ownership of only spayed or neutered animals.[/QUOTE]

The dogs the public bring to classes of course I don’t know all their lives and medical histories.
Those many of our dog club members and exhibitors in our area, yes, all of us know most everything about them, from the time we play with them as puppies, thru all the classes and training sessions until they are old.

Most of those dogs over many years were spayed, as only a few club members also bred and even those, once they didn’t breed any more, the females were spayed then.

I would say that was a good way to manage most dogs for many more reasons that not, better than keeping pets not neutered, if you are not going to be breeding, neutering done right before puberty, as close as possible to permit as much maturity otherwise as possible.

In agility competition, there has been the past 20 or so years some that want to wait until complete maturity to spay, because of some studies, but in our small samples, I would say it didn’t seem to make any difference.

I still go by what our vets tell us, that they see way too many older females that were not spayed with pyometra and breast cancer that could have been avoided with spaying.
The risks of spaying problems, at the right time, is honestly minimal, if not 100%, of course, compared with those of pyometra and breast cancers when older.

[Houndhill]

[QUOTE=SquishTheBunny;6890609]
Houndhill, just wondering, do you breed your IW’s? I have a friend who lives a few hours north of me who breeds them and has for the past 15 or so years. None of hers have had bone cancer apparently. Do you think its just linked to the gonads, or could there be genetic play as well? I know many IW’s are inbred to some extent and wondering if it could be more linked to certain lines?[/QUOTE]

Yes I do breed, have for many years.

I think the removal of gonadal hormones may simply potentiate a propensity that is there in many giant breeds and some sighthounds such as track greyhounds.

It may be related to the very rapid growth rate, which is incredible in IWs. They go from a little over a pound at birth to 100 pounds at six months. Some have suggested a link to micro fractures in the bones, which has also been suggested in track greyhounds, which have the highest rate of bone cancer.

Hopefully current research will give us more info…in the meantime, it is worth noting that s/n may greatly increase the chance that these genes are expressed, ie., the propensity is there, s/n in these cases increases the probability that it will happen.

[Houndhill]

[QUOTE=Bluey;
I still go by what our vets tell us, that they see way too many older females that were not spayed with pyometra and breast cancer that could have been avoided with spaying.
The risks of spaying problems, at the right time, is honestly minimal, if not 100%, of course, compared with those of pyometra and breast cancers when older.[/QUOTE]

And if your vets were Swedish, they would tell you the exact opposite…

[Bluey]

[QUOTE=Houndhill;6890669]
And if your vets were Swedish, they would tell you the exact opposite…[/QUOTE]

Some of our dog club members are veterinarians, competing in obedience and agility and their dogs are spayed, all but one that was breeding and also showing in conformation.

[jetsmom]

[QUOTE=Houndhill;6890291]
Well threedog pack, when you look at studies such as the Rottie and the Golden study, and see osteosarcoma rates doubled in spayed/neutered vs intact animals, to what other than steroidal hormones would you attribute these results?[/QUOTE]

I’d want to know genetically how similar are the dogs in the study. If they have a line of dogs that are gentically predisposed to cancer, then it would make sense, if spaying does increase the odds even slightly, then you will see that. However if they are using unrelated dogs, and say comparing individually owned dogs of that breed, then they may get a large number of unaltered show dogs that are better bred, and a large number of puppy mill/pet store/rescue dogs that were spayed, so the spayed group is genetically inferior/inbred and may have a geneticpredisposition to cancer anyways.