That was an interesting post, thank you for that 
I’m very excited for you! This is a cross I’ve secretly been wanting to do… although I would do ET. Can’t wait to see what you get!!!
Yes, I did seriously consider using ET. But, I’ve done ET’s before, and I felt in the end that letting the mare carry was the lesser of the two risks. I’m sure there are plenty of people that will disagree with that. I did an ET a few years ago and the mare double ovulated and flushed two embryos - great odds for getting at least one of the recips to settle - neither of the two recips settled! :no:
Wishing you all the best!
Molly, I had to mention your quote… It is actually "You’re a BETTER man than I am Gunga Din.
"Though I’ve belted you an’ flayed you,
By the livin’ Gawd that made you,
You’re a better man than I am Gunga Din.
Thanks Skydy - I will make sure I use it properly next time. Knowing it now, I wouldn’t have used it at all. “with freedom comes responsibility” comes to mind
Congrats, Foxcreek! Hope the foals are everything you hope for!
And, regarding the “size” issue - I was told some years back by a German GRP breeder that it is much safer to use a horse stallion for a purebred pony mare (e.g., Welsh), than to use a horse stallion for a crossbred pony such as most GRPs. In the first case, the Welsh mare’s entire genetic make-up is for producing small fetuses, whereas in the second case, the mare carries genes for producing larger fetuses and very well may grow a foal too large to be safely delivered.
This breeder also said it was generally not a problem to use a smaller warmblood stallion with a larger GRP mare, and there are a few warmblood stallions on the Weser-Ems stallion roster. Examples include the Strahlmann, 155cm (Oldenburg by Sandro Hit / Weltmeyer / Busoni xx); Quader, 160cm (Oldenburg by Quaterback / Glöckner / Adamo I); the pinto stallion Showtime AS, 158 cm (Oldenburg by Sevillano xx / Uniek / Ico); Quatman, 153cm (Holsteiner by Quintero / Caretino);
Edited to add that the breeder also said that foals from these types of breedings might very likely go over Deustches Reitpony size (138cm-148cm), but they may still finish in the Kleines Deustches Reitford category (149-158cm). And since they are registered as foals, the inspectors make a judgement call based on pedigree and size of the foal when they see it as to which category it will fall in. Both categories are under the Weser-Ems umbrella, so the distinction really only affects which “book” a mare or stallion goes into when inspected for studbook placement.
Good luck Foxcreek! Can’t wait to see the foal (s)!
Congratulations, very happy for you!
Well, actually, I was asking why not breed these pony mares to a GRP stallion, but that’s ok
Does anyone know the general proportions T’s foals tend to be? I ask only out of concern for the safety of the mares. If his foals tend to have really large shoulders, well…
Good luck foxcreek, I do hope you will share the bebes next year
Wow, should be some interesting foals, I too look forward to seeing them. I don’t see any reason not to gamble with this, I hardly think it would be difficult to sell them.
I cannot imagine that there is any chance they will turn out to be nice ammy honies however! I would think they will be quite the sensitive little firecrackers 
Down yonder, very interesting post and information! Another small warmblood stallion is Ridley and Welcome Sympatico. In speaking with the German GRP breeders there are quite differing opinions on the use of Warmbloods in GRP breeding. Some, like Mr. Ellers who owned Constantin in the Weser-Ems region bred 1/2 Welsh 1/2 warmblood all the time. Others are adamantly against it because the result is an end product and not a reliable producer of future ponies (size issues). My own opinion lies somewhere in the middle of these two views. But I think it’s all very interesting.
JB the reason to breed the mares to the warmblood and not to a GRP is to weave some of a particular warmblood line into the GRP. Caramel is another good example of warmblood in GRP blood. And my mare, Aphrodite S has one line of Hanoverian, and Trakehner has been used quite a bit in GRP breeding also, it can be seen crossed on Eckely and others. But, if breeding for ponies the offspring size does become more unpredictable and difficult.
JB, I don’t know an answer to the proportions question, but the very successful French show jumper pony, Jimmerdor de Florys is another example of a small mare: 12.3 hands that was bred to Nimmerdor: 1.68 m - Totilas is 1.70 m. Nimmerdor is the grand-sire of Lominka. Also, interestingly the dam of Gribaldi was only 1.54 m.
Wow. I can honestly say I’d never do this for any reason. #1 of course is the safety of the mare. Too many times there have been horrid complications. The other huge reason is the end result, which in numerous breedings I’ve known about the proportions are off. Too short of leg, long of back, etc.
I worry for the mares. Good luck to them.
LOL!! There will always be naysayers. I’m surprised it took this long to find one.
I think there is a huge difference between being a naysayer and expressing concern for your mare’s safety. Breeding is enough of a crap shoot, it seems to me that you are tipping the odds even more on the dangerous side. Not a risk I would take but obviously it is your decision.
Well, I think the pony x horse is a very popular cross as i can think of numerous people doing this (including me! - mine is due this month) if the result ends up too big for pony people there is a ever growing market for fancy dressage honies.
I cant wait to see the results and see how infusing Totilas into GRPs will affect what is available.
and if the results are not breeding worthy i am sure they will be able to be sold very easily as dressage ponies
So people that have safety concerns.
Is it personal experience with many cases?
I am wondering because all the information and studies that I have ever read says that the breeding should not be that much more of a high risk delivery than any other delivery. I have seen several horror stories but they were oversized foals from two comparable in size horses. PMU barns used draft stallions for the mares (better meat prices) and some of the mares were small Qh type mares. This was done in large numbers (1000’s) and the barn owners did not see a difference in the foaling issues much more than normal.
It seems there is as much knowledge to say that the breeding would not be that much more of a risk than a regular breeding.
PS any maiden breeding is a risk and if you did the stats, it may be as risky as pony/horse cross.
Yes, pony x horse crosses are not uncommon.
But, for those of us who are concerned for the mare’s safety, it’s about an almost 5h difference in height - 12h pony mare to 16.3h stallion who is not that light of a horse to begin with.
If the mare (and she’s not pictured on the page I found) is a wee thing, narrow through the hips for example, then it IS a real concern that while the foal may overall be “small enough”, it’s quite feasible shoulders will be too large.
That’s where the concern lies.
For the 13.2h mare, it’s less of a concern.
Congrats Foxcreek, and fingers crossed for you that the second mare is in foal, and that both have uneventful pregnancies and foaling. I’m doubly impressed that you bred them yourself! I know you run a top notch facility, and have weighed the pros and cons; your mares will receive the best care possible.
I found your input on breeding a warmblood stallion to a Welsh mare versus a GRP mare very interesting, you’ve obviously done your homework! I can’t wait to see the resulting foals!
PS Has Circe been confirmed in foal to Dexter yet??
Chiming in from Miniature/Sheltand land
Most of the bad births related to size seem to be from the WIDTH of the foal, not the HEIGHT of the foal, assuming the foal isn’t in a bad position to start with. The shoulders and/or hips get hung up on the pelvis and that’s when things get hideous. Usually you have to help mama with these, sometimes the baby just.won’t.fit.
People get worried about height but you’ve got to think where that height is coming from. Legs? Legs fold up. Big bodies, big heads, big hips, big shoulders. Those take up room.
If the pony mares in question aren’t very narrow/willowy, have been known to exert some size control on their foals and have an adequate pelvis, I wouldn’t be overly concerned.
I’m not giving an opinion on whether these types of breedings should be done, but from a scientific standpoint there is no evidence that horse-in-pony breedings cause any greater risk than any other type of breeding combination. As has been quoted the classic study was done on this long ago; draft horse in pony mares. Since then size of breeding combinations has been studied off-and-on and there is no evidence that there is a statistically higher rate of dystocia in these types of pairings vs. pony-in-pony and horse-in-horse.
Yes - always naysayers - this is COTH after all. Good luck and we will be interested in the outcome.
If it is a mare, and the foal grows over pony size, then there is the opportunity to breed down again. That is how the GRP evolved.
