Updated: Stiff and stubbron; do chiros or stretching exercises work?

[goeslikestink]

[QUOTE=Eclectic Horseman;3223699]
No not all stiffness, but apparently the OP said that the horse is new to her and came this way. She also said that the horse was the same with her trainer riding.

True that inflexibility can be caused by bad riding over time. It can also be caused by compensation from an old injury or, as in humans, bad habitual posture. Passive stretching is a good way to diagnose whether the problem is inherent and how restricted the horse actually is. It can rule out resistances that the horse my have while being ridden.

Once you have determined through passive stretching that the horse has a restricted range of motion or flexibility, you can gradually work on improving it without force, and without any possible rider error. And, if done every day, it usually helps without ever doing any harm.

I was not a big believer, until I started riding a client’s mare who everyone who had ever ridden her said was locked up on the right side of her neck. The mare was serviceably sound, but she had had an old injury to her right hind ankle which left her with significant arthritis. We started doing carrot stretches with her, and found that she couldn’t bend her neck to the right enough to reach back for a carrot at her shoulder. She got progressively better as the carrot stretches were done every day. When she could reach back to her hip, the owner stopped doing the carrot stretches, and she gradually got stiffer on the right side again. Since then, she does her carrot stretches every day and no one who has ever ridden her has found her to be heavy on the right rein or resistant to bending on the right side.

As a result of that experience, I became a believer and have used carrot stretches with a number of horses. I have also heard some BNT state at clinics that they have their grooms do carrot stretches with their horses. There is a reason that professional athletes have their trainers and therapists–and equine athletes can benefit for the same reason.[/QUOTE]

i think your on the right lines here

my thoughts --its ntohing to to with the horse but in the rider and the trainer
as you both riding the same way, and the trianer has not picked up on the fact that the rider is riding how writes as the trianer also does it

so its a fault with the rider and trainer, as in neither of them give on the side that they are strongeest on so horse will be advasive and stiff

as i have no confidence in many trianers over usa as most arnt qualified or have proven backgrounds to teach admit there are some about that post on here
of which have respect for but they of few people so many people have pita horses here
and trianers that over look the obvious

its down to position , and to ride the horse between leg and hand with an independant seat

if how ever you have just been tuaght to ride wtc then you will only wtc at a level
which is very basic and cannot, correct or see, same to with the trianer as they only teach walk trot canter, in other words how to baisically stay on the neddy
when it has a few problems ie stiff – they cant alter or correct it as they dont know how to
or they cant see there own mistakes and teach that very same mistake to others as they teach how they ride and not how to ride

so the horse is the one that gets the blame for doing xyz - ie stiff or advasive

when truth – the rider cant ride – hands set horse is stiff or will hollow up and buck or rear

for exsample-- if you the human dropped your schoulders the horse would fall in

or trip–

its about upper body and centralisation using your body in harmony to the horses movements —

if like i said you ride as you write – ie right handed then the horse is going to be strong
on right therefore stiff on the left

so give as in you give and make yourself even up— practice with holding a crop level
on top of your thumbs — your hands should be soft, and still and your legs secure and light

[slc2]

"LY where she is REALLY bent with inside rein AND outside leg around inside leg "

I disagree. Leg yield where he is really connected to the outside rein (left rein going to the left) and moving from the inside leg, bending slowly more and then less with the inside (bent side) rein.

The OP has said the horse does bend his neck to the right under saddle, just not as she would like.

She hasn’t answered if the horse never bends his neck to the right when loose, to scratch, reach for grass, etc, but since he will bend right under saddle, I think he will reach for grass, scratch, etc, on the right side.

That’s really vital to know, as a constantly rigid position in which the horse never bends at all one way, that would suggest a previous injury. But keep in mind it may not be in the neck where the problem lies.

but the fact that he does bend to the right under saddle suggests that this is a training issue rather than a physical pain or muscle shortening issue.

He doesn’t bend as desired, but he does bend. He ‘cheats’ and tips his head rather than bending more in the neck, I think this is an indication that the issue does lie in riding and training, and originates further back, rather than in an injury that prevents the horse from bending right, or even a muscle tension/tightness.

In fact, most horses bend differently to one side than the other. The dressage training process involves evening them up so they can bend equally well to both sides.

Most horses differ, physically, from the start, in how well each hind leg works, and how strong it is, and in how they bend and how they react to the aids. That’s the basic situation for nearly every horse.

Even the suggestion of a training issue, most people would resist, so the negative reaction and not wanting to examine the training/riding isn’t surprising - it’s pretty typical actually. But there’s always new things to learn and different things one can do with a horse in dressage, there’s always a horse that comes along to challenge one and that’s when the rider grows and develops.

If I had a horse that would not bend to the right, and was not caused pain by bending right, I would try to do a little ‘diagnostics’, I would watch what he does when loose, and make sure he can bend his neck to the right freely. Really the first thing I do is just sit and watch the horse in the stall, paddock, pasture, you get more clues than a dog gets fleas. Nearly all horses don’t bend properly on the longe line, so I wouldn’t be too concerned if he was bent left when going right when unconstrained on the longe line.

I’d offer him a carrot held back by his right side, and I’d EXPECT that he won’t reach quite as well on the right side, even if he wasn’t actually in pain.

I would start by just having him ‘get over’ in the stall in response to pressure on his side where the rider’s leg goes, and I’d watch how he reacts. If he didn’t ‘get over’, I’d increase the pressure til he did then reward him.

I would be doing a sort of turn on the forehand exercise around me from the ground before riding. I’d turn the horse’s neck with the right rein, and have him move his haunches away from me so that his right hind leg crossed in front of his left hind leg. The problem with the exercise is not doing too much with the rein so that the hind leg can cross over in front of the other hind leg instead of behind, and doing it out of some forward momentum (which also helps the legs cross properly). I’d do the exercise to both sides, and I wouldn’t overdo it to the ‘bad’ side, maybe just a time or two more. A horse can do more of this ‘stepping exercise’ on the ground than he could from the saddle, but I’d still be careful not to overdo. Making the muscles sore is counter productive. I just want to work them some, not make him sore and angry.

I’d longe the horse to the right, with a short longeing period with the right side rein a little bit shorter, while taking and giving on the longe line to encourage him to bend. I wouldn’t over do it. I’d work up to a little more time each longeing lesson. I wouldn’t longe for a long time, not over 10-15 min, and would change direction after just a few circles in each direction.

Later, when that was going well, I’d start leg yielding, probably on the track, at a walk to start, to the LEFT, not the right (going to the left, counter clockwise around the ring, leg yield along the track).

I’d work really hard when turning, circling, doing corners, on making sure I was getting a bend with the inside leg (i might have to start with some real obvious bending with the rein to get the process started, but i’d try to get the idea that the horse is learning to bend from the inside leg), and that I was giving him ‘room to bend’ with the outside rein. I’d circle and do lots of different figures, but I’d never forget my leg yields.

Dressage is the best ‘physical therapy’ there is. It really is therapy, and I think, much of the time, much better therapy than any other sort of method.

[ride-n-tx]

Good grief, way to be unhelpful! you act like no one in the world is capable of riding a horse. Or as goeslikestink stated, ‘no trainers in the US’ are qualified or capable.

Neither of you have any basis to make your assumptions so I am not going to waste my breath trying to defend myself. However, I can tell you that my trainer is certainly capable of getting a horse to bend properly!

[slc2]

you’re entitled to your opinion. i think most people would much prefer to see a problem as a medical one that requires a chiropractor than to say, ‘here’s a problem, i bet i can change something i’m doing up there and make it better’…most good riders however are very willing to do that. i think the ideal is when the owner can provide a lot of comfort to the horse thru different techniques - turnout, massage, etc, and the training and riding too is adjusted to deal with problems that come up.

if a person feels massage or chiro helps? fine. they they should do it. but i think the riding and training needs to address problems of bending, crookedness, etc, too.

Even the top riders in the world take lessons and can be heard to say, ‘I don’t know what to do about this issue’. the world champion, christine stuckelberger, after she won the world championships in cedar valley, was interviewed and said ‘i wish i had had more time to work with my coach, i don’t always know which aids to apply’…that’s a world champion with decades at the top of sport.

And in my area, students regularly try different trainers and trainers regularly say, ‘Why don’t you talk to so-and-so and see what she says about this horse, she has had a lot of horses like that in her barn’. None of them feel so godlike and perfect.

there’s a gal around here who is the acknowledged and respected genius at starting horses, especially really, really tough horses - someone people with international medals in dressage competition and years of GP success send their horses to and say of, ‘she’s a hell of a lot better at it than i am’, without a single hesitation. everyone has different things and types of horses and problems they’re good at.

I don’t agree with goeslikestink if she means most or all USA trainers aren’t qualified to teach…but…there are a great many that really need more help than they get.

A trainer can be absolutely great and still not quite ‘click’ with a given horse. The best riders in the world have mentors, and trainers themselves that they go to for help and advice.

[goeslikestink]

[QUOTE=ride-n-tx;3226833]
Good grief, way to be unhelpful! you act like no one in the world is capable of riding a horse. Or as goeslikestink stated, ‘no trainers in the US’ are qualified or capable.

Neither of you have any basis to make your assumptions so I am not going to waste my breath trying to defend myself. However, I can tell you that my trainer is certainly capable of getting a horse to bend properly![/QUOTE]

mate i didnt say that – no trianers but we all know most are to young or kids or something liek that, there are decent trianers about all iam saying if you want the horse to go properly then find a trianer with a proven carreer path

ie dressage driving show jumping etc somethat s been there and done it alot

[system]

acupuncture

You may want to consider a combination of chiropractic and acupuncture. Followed up with massage. This worked extremely well for me on both horses I had worked on. The acupuncture worked a miracle on my mare. Her entire confirmation literally changed overnight after the treatment. The vet who treated her couldn’t believe the difference as he had never seen such dramatic changes. Needless to say I felt guilty as she clearly had a number of ongoing problems that I totally overlooked.

[J-Lu]

With all due respect, I think a number of you are missing the point of the OP’s question. I find it interesting that people automatically jump to the conclusion that the problem is with the riding and training. I think it is safe to assume that ride-n-tx and her trainer are doing a decent job. Since she’s in my town, I can attest. Her trainer has a career path. :lol: She’s asking about body bend under saddle, not neck bend.

Let me add another opinion. The horses in my barn compete locally and nationally and a few are being groomed for international competition (who knows if they make it or not, but one can always hope). They are very well conformed and bred. They have professional career trainers. Three are currently with a GP rider and Pan Am winner in Florida. Both here and there, they get weekly massages. Here, they’re massaged by an AWESOME massage therapist name Torey Jeanes. (I can provide contact information for locals). She not only loosens the horses, but she can detect saddle fitting issues while they’re still in the “strange fussiness” stage, a strained tendon from turnout when it is in the “well that reaction was odd but I’m not too worried” stage, etc. Basically, she can point to some related muscular groups that have edema or tightness and tell you how that will manifest in the horse’s movement without you saying a word. She’s that good.

the proof? She works on me occasionally, and the first time she pretty much described what I do for a living without me telling her (she figured out that I crane into a microscope, slouch because the chair is too high at my work bench, and reach for the mouse on the microscope system which is too far away because of the short cord). Really, she’s that good. When she’s done, I wonder why I eat in lieu of getting massages.

She works with a vet/chiropractor, and for some horses in the barn, I’ve seen them find things that the “traditional” vets didn’t find (with $$$$ diagnostics, only to find that massage therapist/chiro were on the right track after $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ diagnostics). I’ve seen tremendous changes in some of these horses. I can provide refs for you, ride-n-tex, if you want.

In my case, (I don’t use her often because I am poor, but I use her when I need her because she is so insightful), she helped me figure out that my saddle tree points were broken, and another time helped me figure out that my horse’s front end offness was a result of the diagonal hind-leg “exuberance” strain (compensatory weight-bearing). She’s also worked on my horse on “off days” at multi-day shows when she was stuck in the stall instead of her usual turnout. Of note, since, my horse has become a massage junkie. She leans into my currying at the right spots, and has learned to “self-massage” her butt, withers and poll against the bars and beams of the cross-tie area and her fence. Wish I was kidding.

Our therapist helped another rider figure out that her saddle pinched something as his topline developed that made him short behind. Her formerly perfectly fine Lauriche on - horse was short. Donor shleese on, horse went fine. Back to Lauriche - horse was short and irregular. Back to donor schleese, horse was fine. It was strange. Horse went to vet - couldn’t find anything wrong on the ground, $$$$$ later. She figured out it was that the saddle no longer fit and it manifest first in his irregular hind leg stride.

The best part of both Torey and the chiro is that they tell you when they are no longer needed. Who says that?

The massage therapists are also the first to figure out shoeing irregularities.

In short, I have come to believe 100% in equine massage therapists for being part of the team that helps figure out what is going on with the horse as well as maintaining the high performance sport horse. I can’t afford it regularly, but when in need I go there and I’ve gained tremendous insight into my horse. It can get pricey, but honestly, I can sometimes learn more from them than my vet with a smaller bill. When does my vet spend an hour with my horse? Others DO afford it regularly and their horses really do benefit from it, in terms of overall looseness and early detection of problems. Our area also boasts Patty Holien, who is also a very talented massage therapist (I can provide contact info for locals) and can also help find the root of performance issues.

So ride-n-tex, I can give you a list of people at my barn who can give you testimonials to the benefits of massage therapists/chiros being a part of the “health team” that can figure out what is going on with your stiff new ride. I can also give you phone numbers of people who I think can really help you. When’s the last time your vet charged you $60 for an hour of time with your horse?

J.
P.s. I do carrot stretches regularly, and every time I work with collection (which is often), her neck “cracks”. I have her reach “high” to the flanks, “low” towards the flanks, and then between her knees". She’s a sucker for food so she always reaches even when she doesn’t want to. I supple her alot under saddle, but her personality contributes to her holding of her frame muscles when she’s concentrating. As my GP trainers have said.

[EqTrainer]

While I agree that dressage is physical therapy (and I wish more people understood this, and took it to heart) I also think it can be extremely helpful to do bodywork on all horses, particularly ones with these types of issues.

You just get to where you are trying to get to much faster when you team up on a problem. You also can gain insights as to why the horse is this way and how it got that way. Stiff and hollow sides are indeed normal; stiff and hollow in such a way that the horse has a hard time turning his head undersaddle would make me take a second look.

I would not want one without the others; bodywork without correct riding is not helpful, or vice versa. But putting them all together can be amazing. Why beat your head against the wall if you don’t have to.

[nhwr]

Just say no!

Step away from riding prevention.

Really good book;
“Stretch Exercises for Your Horse” by Karin Blignault.
My mare, who is now 15, was schooled to 4th level. She was quite stiff through the neck and poll and not very straight. She could be very resistant. I had an injury that gave her a bunch of time off in pasture. I brought her back to work incorporating a lot of the exercises in this book (plus oral HA).

WOW!

[J-Lu]

Exercises can include (depending on his level):

Multiple serpentines at the trot where the horse really works on changing flexion and bend at X withough changing stride or frame. This can take a while but it is a good exercise.

Lots of counter-canter if he knows this - or shallow serpentines. This’ll help strengthen each hind leg and help develop carrying capacity.

Lots of trot shoulder-fore or shoulder-in, changing at B or E, to help strengthen each hind leg and develop flexibility. Ride on quarterlines rather than the rail.

Leg yield - think passage and emphasize crossing of the legs.

Lots of flexion to counter-flexion on large circles and direction changes to get suppleness and balance. Reward effort! Same with canter, introduce counter-flexion to loosen the poll.

lots of figure-8s at the trot, starting from two ovals to two circles, depending on his flexibility. If he can’t do it in his weak direction - fine! reward effort!

leg-yield from centerline to quarterline to centerline. Helps teach balance.

Trot work over ground poles and then a few raised cavaletti - helps develop strength. Ground poles can then be laid on a circle to encourgage bending. Go through in both directions, let your horse figure out the exercise as best he can. Relaxation and attentiveness to the exercise is the key.

Lots of flexion and suppling at the walk after a the warm-up walk. At the walk, you can do larger flexion changes and neck-bends, shoulder-in, haunches in, turn on the forehand and haunches, etc. to loosen a stiff horse laterally. If my horse is feeling very stiff, I warm up at the trot/canter (loose, low, trot…picked up trot with lengthened to working trot…to canter to LENGTHENED/ EXTENDED canter in both directions to stretch the range through the ribcage and limbs) and then come back to walk suppling exercises. This works for my horse…maybe for yours?

J.

Each ride, he’ll gain both flexibility and strength.

[Carol_Ames]

have used both, and both work, if there is no"block" i in the body :When I have the option, I try to work with a holistic veterinarian who will be the most likely person to find the underlying reason and suggest the best complementary therapy. But sometimes, even then, it is just trial and error. I AGREE1:yes:

[Carol_Ames]

check si/hpelvis/hips

He doesn’t bend as desired, but he does bend. He ‘cheats’ and tips his head rather than bending more in the neck, I think this is an indication that the issue does lie in riding and training, and originates further back, rather than in an injury that prevents the horse from bending right, or even a muscle; possibly rotated pelvis, sacroiliac:eek: tension/tightness.; very likely the result rsult of injury

[slc2]

i agree with this one.

but someone who suggests working on the riding angle isn’t necessarily saying masage or any other methodology is worthless, nor does it mean they’re going out there riding a lame horse every day, either.

[Valentina_32926]

@ride-n-tx;3226275

Hey, these posts are really helpful. Thanks!

Originally I was thinking that maybe I should back off the lateral work, but maybe I should just keep doing leg yields, shoulder-ins, voltes and renvers?

Yes - keep up with the lateral work - that combined with the massage (and chiro if needed) will loosen him up enough to help him bend (under saddle and in hand).

[Carol_Ames]

sothingtouch

http://www.thoroughbredtimes.com/horse-health/2006/September/11/Soothing-touch.aspxcheck check this out:yes:

[Cubs]

[QUOTE=ride-n-tx;3222469]
I am working with a horse that is very stiff to the right. Right now he just braces and won’t bend or stretch down to the right, but he seems fine going to the left.

I haven’t had him very long and he has been getting progressively less stiff. However, he is only 7 and doesn’t have any physical issues so he shouldn’t be this difficult going to the right.

I had my trainer hop on him during our lesson when we were battling it out and she had the same issue with him, so it is not a rider issue (pfew!). I think this is mostly a training issue that we will have to work through, but I would like to hear what has worked for other people.

For those of you that have worked through a tough stiffness issue, what has worked for you? Have you tried chiropractors? Or carrot stretches? How effective are they?[/QUOTE]

There is something called a ‘chiropractic stretch.’ Since performing an osseous chiropractic move (contacting a bone, taking it to tension, then providing an impulse or thrust) should only be done twice a week at the most, you should consider just taking the joint to tension (loading the joint, which means removing all of the joint slack), and holding that for 30 seconds. It is much more specific stretch since you are stretching the joint according to the misalignment which was determined by the chiropractic evaluation. I used to teach this at my seminars, which I no longer do.
But Dr. Bill Hampton, D.C. will be putting on a chiropractic technique clinic similar to the ones I used to do. His next one is near Santa Cruz, CA next month. If you’re interesed in details send me an email.
Thank You,
Daniel Kamen, D.C.
author of The Well Adjusted Horse

[Dune]

@Cubs;3236465

There is something called a ‘chiropractic stretch.’ Since performing an osseous chiropractic move (contacting a bone, taking it to tension, then providing an impulse or thrust) should only be done twice a week at the most, you should consider just taking the joint to tension (loading the joint, which means removing all of the joint slack), and holding that for 30 seconds. It is much more specific stretch since you are stretching the joint according to the misalignment which was determined by the chiropractic evaluation. I used to teach this at my seminars, which I no longer do.
But Dr. Bill Hampton, D.C. will be putting on a chiropractic technique clinic similar to the ones I used to do. His next one is near Santa Cruz, CA next month. If you’re interesed in details send me an email.
Thank You,
Daniel Kamen, D.C.
author of The Well Adjusted Horse

You broke your promise/threat!!!:winkgrin:

[normandy_shores]

YES!

Some horses respond better to chiro, or massage, or acupuncture, but do you think a stretching exercise could NOT benefit?

My horse had a lovely s-curve in his spine before a good chiro worked on him, but with carrot stretches and leg exercises, plus under saddle supplines (walking leg yields, yielding on a circle, etc), the chiro said “GOSHDARN, this is is nice and limber and flexible considering his F’d back!”

When my boy was retired and very sore, he’d walk up to his masseuse dragging his hind feet. He’d step away from her with a spring in his step, back feet lifted. He got nothing out of acupuncture, though I tried several times. As for the chiro… well, it’s the main reason I have a sound horse!

It’s worth a try on the other things if you’ve got the money, but there’s no reason NOT to do stretch exercises. It’s free to you, and takes 2 minutes to do.

[ride-n-tx]

I just wanted to share a quick update on my boy:

The stiff horse had a chiropractor work on him a week ago. The chiro said that he was very stiff in the neck and shoulders. When I asked her how bad he was on a scale of 0 - 5 (5 being the most stiff) she said he was a 4.

I gave him a few days off and just did carrot stretches. I learned how to be more effective with his stretches by preventing him from tilting his head to the right (more difficult than you might think!).

A week later he is much improved! He bends through his body and is much more forward and fluid!! I feel bad that the poor guy must have been uncomfortable being so tight but I am quite relieved that this wasn’t a major issue and could be easily resolved.

J-Lu, thanks for the exercise ideas, and I will look into using a massage person as part of the “health team”.

[JB]

@ride-n-tx;3226275

I did some carrot stretches today and he did the same thing that he does under saddle. His neck is loose and relaxed when he stretches it to the left but to the right it is tight and doesn’t really flex. he will turn his neck a few degrees to the right but then he cheats and tilts his head to the side to get the carrots. He doesn’t act like he is in pain, it’s more like it’s just blocked. I will keep doing these to see if he improves.

I have been there with my guy, only going the other way. Chiro work has helped a LOT. So has some very concentrated muscle work. Don’t think that the problem is simply that the left side of the neck is tight, as there may be something on the right side that is blocking him instead (or in addition).

Have you ever done “fly bites” with him? Stand on his right side (so you can check his good left bend first) and reach around with your right hand and “tickle” his left shoulder. You want his reaction to be to whip his head around to get the “fly”. You want the reactive motion so that he doesn’t carefully think about what he’s doing and avoid any discomfort. Play around with how much tickling it takes, but after a couple of tries you may have to wait til the next day, as they seem to get wise to you doing it and ignore you.

So, see what his reaction is like going left. Then do the same thing going right. By this time you should have a good feel for what it takes to make him want to GET THAT FLY. If he simply won’t do it, then there is a physical problem. If he whips around just fine, it doesn’t mean there is no problem, it just means he’s able to do it without thinking about it, and standing still.

This is a good way to help them self-adjust their neck too.

With my guy, he could bend to the hard side just fine, as long as he was standing still. But asking him to bend correctly (head vertical, not cheating and tilted) WHILE asking him to lift his back, produced a very cranky pony.

I am not sure I could even begin to describe the hands-on manipulation I was shown to help with this, so I’ll just say, for now, that it involved having one person do the back raise while a 2nd person asked him to lift his neck and bend. It is not that simplistic. If you want to PM me I can try to explain it more, but I don’t feel comfortable putting it out here for any whacko to try