Updated: time and bodywork have given us hope! Bone scan vs neck X-rays vs retire vs?

[Arelle]

I haven’t read any of your previous posts; just going off of what you’ve posted here.

I’d start with a neck x-ray. The reason is your comment about his legs falling out from him or tripping or otherwise acting funny on the lunge.

Last year, we had a horse diagnosed with cervical vertebral compressive myelopathy at 8, after many wins in flat classes, over fences classes, etc. He did some weird things in the round pen - but you almost wouldn’t notice unless you watched. He would turn his neck a specific way, and it was like a nerve was struck in his legs, and he didn’t know where they were for a split second.

The neck X-rays would be cheaper than the bone scan and may give you answers that straight retirement would not. However, I have a horse in my pasture who is a walking nightmare of body issues - kissing spine, bad hocks, bad feet, bad everything… and he’s been retired since he was 9. I adore him but bless his heart, he was not born with a winning hand to stay sound and comfortable with a rider - so we keep him out as much as possible and when he tells us that he’s too uncomfortable even for that, we’ll say goodbye.

Best of luck!

[fivestrideline]

@2tempe

Just wondering if the horse has had a basic neuro exam?

Yes he has. The vet did not seem to think he was neuro, we ended up finding the suspensory that appointment. I wouldn’t put 100% confidence in that neuro determination though.

[lenapesadie]

@fivestrideline

@lenapesadie

Bute? Frog support pads?

He sounds pretty uncomfortable just in his own skin? I’d put a deadline on that. Horse needs to be comfortable in retirement by X date or I’ll give him his final peace.

Done both. No real change. We had frog support pads on but the trim got BAD so I pulled the shoes. No difference in comfort even directly out of pour ins and pads

So you’ve given this horse max Bute and he’s still uncomfortable? Various shoe set ups haven’t helped? He’s already diagnosed with KS? You’re hopeful that further diagnostics will find an additional problem that’s more treatable than the current known issues? Or you’re hoping to rule out additional issues so it makes sense to do KS surgery?

I guess if it was me and I wasn’t ready to let this horse go, I’d be circling back on that farriery work. I’d be more apt to x ray neck over bone scan simply bc my regular vet can do neck x rays. I suppose diet changes are easy enough to try though I’m not sold on forcing exercise on a horse that has to back himself into his run in shelter.

[CHT]

My gelding passed a neuro exam too, even though he had clearly, previously broken his neck. It was actually a vet chiro that told me to x-ray is cervical vertebra as it just didn’t feel right. I guess what happens, is that the horse is basically ok at first, but that over time the break lays down more bone along the inside and that bone starts to fray/press on the spinal cord, so you start having this NQR moments. (I am likely over simplifying). My horse was a competitive dressage horse with a broken neck, but he could not do a canter/walk transition, and his one turn on the haunches was iffy. He could jump 3’6" and do great flying changes though! His only other symptoms were sudden unpredictable behaviour under saddle, extreme sensitivity to saddle fit, and growing aggression with other horses.

Not that I am saying this is the issue your horse has, but more that sometimes the more serious issues present more subtly, and I understand your frustration. I would go from giving up and retiring my horse, to trying one more thing to diagnose. I put him down when he turned 16 as he broke a molar and i couldn’t justify the surgery. I probably should have put him down sooner, as he hadn’t been able to even share a fence with other horses for a while - he was that unpredictably, over the top aggressive.

[atr]

I’d have last ditch look at his neck and front feet. But if neither of those show a red flag, I think I’d be done.

You have put a huge amount of resource into this horse, which is emotionally exhausting as well as financially.

This is going to make me sound like an unfeeling bitch, but the problem with retirement rather than making the big decision right now if you board, is, bluntly, that you’ve the got this somewhat unsound horse that, if you’ve found a really good retirement spot, can go on being a somewhat unsound but fat and mostly happy for the next decade or so, and its really hard to call it for all kinds of guilt and peer pressure reasons unless things go horribly downhill.

I know because I’ve got one. He’s a nice horse now in his early 20s who will never be rideable again and lurches from one minor crisis to the next, so his vet bills are not insignificant on top of his not-cheap retirement board.

This is a huge financial commitment that only you can decide to take on.

[barnesthenoble]

So sorry you’re going through this. I’ve been through this a few times and it sucks.

Based on previous experiences I wouldn’t bother with a bone scan. Out of about a dozen folks (including myself) who have done one on various mystery cases, I know of exactly one that yielded anything helpful, and even then they still needed to do $$$$$$ diagnostics (rads, ultrasound) and treatments to see if it could solve the problem. At this point I’d rather throw the $3k straight into x-raying and ultrasounding the whole damn horse than do another bone scan. I would definitely do neck rads, just to see what you have.

A lot of the pain sounds like it could be from the feet; when the feet hurt, everything comes apart. Dealing with this now on a horse that just kind of fell apart while we were experimenting with correcting his feet. We’re finally on the upswing and his feet are looking better, but it’s been a gnarly six months and I’ve learned a lot. We’re also not out of the woods yet, and I haven’t sunk $$$$ into diagnosing some of the other issues I suspect may be there, as we want to get the feet right before opening up more cans of worms.

With that said, some of the other stuff definitely makes me wonder about something neuro going on. I don’t know enough about PSSM to chime in on that but it could be worth trying.

However, if this were my horse, I’d be inclined to do the neck rads and would also be seriously considering euthanasia. Funds are finite and the horse doesn’t seem comfortable in his skin. The tripping/body soreness/random kicking/etc etc just sounds like an animal that’s unhappy in its skin and it may not be anything you can fix or find. Sometimes you can do everything and it’s not enough. It’s not fair and it sucks and I feel for you. But in your shoes I’d be inclined to x-ray the neck and then have a serious conversation with my vet(s) and other trusted horsepeople about QOL and euthanasia.

[fivestrideline]

@lenapesadie

So you’ve given this horse max Bute and he’s still uncomfortable? Various shoe set ups haven’t helped? He’s already diagnosed with KS? You’re hopeful that further diagnostics will find an additional problem that’s more treatable than the current known issues? Or you’re hoping to rule out additional issues so it makes sense to do KS surgery?

I guess if it was me and I wasn’t ready to let this horse go, I’d be circling back on that farriery work. I’d be more apt to x ray neck over bone scan simply bc my regular vet can do neck x rays. I suppose diet changes are easy enough to try though I’m not sold on forcing exercise on a horse that has to back himself into his run in shelter.

I’m just back in service so I apologize for the scattered responses here.

To be fair I haven’t done “max” bute, but all bute seems to do is wreck his gut and not change anything. I’ve treated and managed his ulcers with success (though no scope, just going off behavior), and I’m not sure bute would touch what previcox, banamine, robaxin, and a tranquilizer didn’t. I could certainly text and ask the vet if a trial is worth it, though.

I am hoping that further diagnostics might either show me something solid that can make me retire him (like a neck issue or something), vs the myriad of symptoms he has that could be his feet + back soreness after suspensory stall rest + a little bit of inherit chestnut TB goofiness. If it really was all KS related, I’d talk about the surgery especially because he’s at a rehab barn now that could handle it.

The backing into the shelter is so weird. He may walk in normally, we just haven’t seen it. He goes into his stall fine, but not enclosed wash racks (I have to back him in), trailers (better on a side load and back in H2H), etc. Not really sure what it means now that he’s backing in while outside. He can turn/spin/rear/throw legs around just fine, trust me.

[fivestrideline]

@CHT

His only other symptoms were sudden unpredictable behaviour under saddle, extreme sensitivity to saddle fit…

I would go from giving up and retiring my horse, to trying one more thing to diagnose.

I’m right there with waffling. It’s so hard.

He’s Mr PICKY about saddles, for sure, but if the KS is clinical I can’t fault him for that. No aggression, but unpredictable under saddle. He’s actually quite a happy boy out with his buddies.

[fivestrideline]

@Amberley

If he’s scared to go outside and backing into the shelter I’d be thinking of letting him go. If you aren’t ready then the neck x-ray and look for ECVM. This sounds a lot like many horses with that.

If he’s falling under saddle and your rider says it sounds like his legs go out please don’t ride him, that’s how people get killed.

It’s strange. He will go out for a bit but come back to the “safe” dry lot (quite large, actually, and no more sheltered than the pasture) unless the BO or I go stand out there with him. He hasn’t been on as big of a turnout in a while (years) so I wonder if that’s part of it.

He is not being ridden, not unless I can confidently say he’s sound and isn’t tripping on the lunge. If you(g) saw his feet I think you would understand why it’s so tempting to blame it on an unbalanced trim, but also he wasn’t getting as fit or less ~weird~ as the BO thought he should be considering his workload. Months of 45m-1hr of marching walk with some hills and poles, then 10 minutes of trotting, and he still looked like an out of shape WP horse. We stopped the exercise when it seemed to be doing nothing for him, and turned him out.

[fivestrideline]

Again sorry for the blast of posts all at once.

I’m slightly encouraged that I’m not the only one who reads his list of issues and thinks there’s something going on OR that it could be his feet, ultimately. It’s frustrating though because he’s got so much going on it’s hard to treat anything and see a result, because something else falls apart.

This horse was remarkably more sound before the suspensory rehab. I’m not saying it was the wrong choice (he was a nut in turnout, definitely would’ve done more damage to the leg), but the confinement seems to have set him off. He seems to be happy and enjoying his turnout.

I plan to get his feet measured for boots and pads next time he gets trimmed, since hauling down to the specialist just isn’t practical. I am hoping the trims will make progress and the boots/pads can get him comfy on his feet enough to see him loosen up on handwalks. I’ll look into the PSSM diet, but may add the Mg I have laying around just to see if it helps in the meantime.

I think the bone scan probably won’t happen, if only from a logistics standpoint, but I may be able to get his neck looked at soon-ish.

[Training_Cupid]

I’ve got a bone scan scheduled next week, can tell you afterwards if it was worth it

[fivestrideline]

Please do!

[joiedevie99]

Have you tested for EPM?

[FromTheGalaxy]

@fivestrideline

This horse was remarkably more sound before the suspensory rehab. I’m not saying it was the wrong choice (he was a nut in turnout, definitely would’ve done more damage to the leg), but the confinement seems to have set him off. He seems to be happy and enjoying his turnout.

I have a mare that CANNOT handle confinement/stall rest. She had colic surgery so of course had to be on stall rest for a couple of months to let the incision heal. She is a nervous type horse that tends to shut down when stressed instead of blowing up. She kept getting infection after infection, both systemic and in the incision site. We would treat her with strong antibiotics and she would pop up with another infection 2 weeks later like clockwork. She refused to eat and would chew on the stall and crib incessantly. It finally got to the point where I was worried I was going to have to put her down because she was loosing so much weight and was sick constantly. She just seemed to have given up.

My vet finally suggested I just take her home (luckily I have my own farm but had sent her to a local barn for stall rest since I don’t have stalls) and turn her out and see if she made it or not. It took MONTHS, but she finally started to act like a horse again, started eating and her personality returned. I know the stall rest was necessary for her healing, but I also think it depressed her so much that it almost killed her.

I don’t know how long your guy has been back to turnout after being on stall rest, but sometimes just giving them time to be a horse out in a field can do wonders. It wasn’t until my mare had been back home for 4+ months that I started to see improvement, and it took over 9 months for her to seem to be a happy, normal horse again. I know it’s not always an option for everyone to just turn them out and let them be since even field board is expensive and of course we want to ride, but I’m a big advocate for letting them just be horses and reset their bodies if you can.

[NaturallyHappy]

Gosh…there is so much good information here. I’ve often wondered if NQR horses that can’t be sorted out medically have muscle, fascia, neuromuscular problems. I think @Peggy Evil Chemistry Professor may have posted once about a veterinarian at U C Davis who was doing work with this. It’s probably silly to ask, but have you tried a fascial body worker w a laser? I’ve seen that help horses that could not be sorted out medically.

[Peggy]

@NaturallyHappy

think @Peggy Evil Chemistry Professor may have posted once about a veterinarian at U C Davis who was doing work with this.

Not me. I have posted about two separate horses with neck issues.

[NaturallyHappy]

Nuts! It was a very interesting read. Someone linked it …I just can’t find it again.

[EADoug]

When looking at this without going deeper into the pain / discomfort stuff, a Zebra popped up for me - could he be having some vision problems on top of the other stuff? Difficulties with going from bright to dark, so more comfortable to back in? Wanting to stay in a more enclosed space he knows well instead of wide open?

Total compounding zebra thought.

[fivestrideline]

That’s not been ruled out. But it would be a simple check next time the vet is out.

I’m having a bodyworker out at the beginning of May, so that should be interesting.

He’s been out of confinement for less than a month. I’d just hoped for more of an obvious, if small, improvement. And not more whacky weirdness.

[fivestrideline]

I am the queen of dredging up my old threads. But I’m here with some interesting updates, if only to add some hope to a depressing thread.

Horse has been retired in the big turnout, with friends, barefoot, for 3-4 months, and just a month or so ago did he start to act like a normal horse. He’s happy and playing, going out in the big field, and stopped the backing into the shelter (as far as we know). His feet have drastically improved with a new farrier and he walked off sound on the pea gravel after his last trim.

I have had the bodyworker out twice now. The first appointment they said he was a MESS (shocker), but that the SI was the worst. He really liked the massage work, and for the first time I had some loose muscles on him! The bodyworker loosened the horse up more than all the drugs in my arsenal. I had them back for a second session a month later and they were SHOCKED at how much he had improved - still really sore on the SI and some other areas, but massive improvement.

The bodyworker suggested adding some chiro into the mix, and I’d thought about injections (SI, or back, or both), but they thought chiro + bodywork + 24/7 turnout + good trims would be best. I’ll take that suggestion with a grain of salt, but I’m happy to keep up the benign neglect and see what happens.

I’m not regretting my choice to rehab the suspensory, but it just goes to show how much the confinement wrecked the rest of him. My vet does chiro, so I am considering having them out to do that and X-ray his feet and neck as well. I just want to check sole depth mainly with the feet, and I think the neck would be good to rule in/out before opening the can of worms that is the SI.