Updated: What seems like a crappy situation. Gimme opinions.

[CrankyHorse12]

Hi all,

Welcome to my alter, so glad you could join me

I would like opinions/advice on a scenario…I’m not quite sure what is correct/acceptable, what is wrong, and what is ethically fuzzy.

For the past 6 months, I have been full-leasing a horse for a not insignificant lease fee. Lease is month-to-month, basic contract with owner who is also the trainer.

First part of scenario: About 3 weeks ago, I went to a week-long show. Ended up getting injured very early in the week and could not continue riding (this occurred in the warm up and I didn’t even end up showing). Had the option logistics-wise to bring horse back to the barn, but owner/trainer wanted him to stay and show. So stay he did, but I was charged (and ended up paying) about 1.5K in show-related fees (including grooming and braiding, services I did not use).

Second part of scenario: In my absence, owner/trainer had another rider show my horse, and the other rider won a not insignificant amount of prize money. This other rider would not have competed in these divisions otherwise. All of the prize money went toward the other rider’s bill and none of it went toward my horse’s fees.

Third part: Then, I hear secondhand that owner/trainer wants my horse to show with the other rider later this month (to a show I will not be attending, but I have paid lease fee and board for this month), when I’ll be back in commission (i.e., when I am physically able to ride again). Email owner/trainer who gives me a vague response as to whether or not my horse will be going to the show with the other rider. That was it. I think that if horse is going to be taken to a show by someone other than me, I need to be reimbursed for that portion of the lease fee (and perhaps at least asked?).

I’m more than a little cranky because I have spent over 5K this month in lease fee, board, and show fees. Also horse needed different shoes and minor vet care in order to show–all paid for by me.

So what should have happened/should happen here? Should I be on the hook for all show expenses if owner/trainer wanted horse to stay and I didn’t? Should other rider’s prize money should have gone toward part of my bill? What should happen financially if owner wants someone else to show the horse?

[Highflyer]

What does your lease agreement say about who can ride the horse/ make decisions about where it competes etc? Have you talked to the trainer to be sure the other rider won’t be billed for any of this? I would think if you full lease the horse, you should get to decide whether the other rider can use it, and at least participate in the discussion of what percent of the expenses they would have to pay (and that they would have to pay for grooming/ braiding etc for the additional days).

[Covergirl15]

Like Highflyer said, is there anything in your lease agreement? Personally, I think that sounds pretty crappy that she would make you pay show fees that you didn’t use. If you couldn’t get the horse home, that’s one thing, but to make you pay for the fees when it sounds like it was her decision to have someone show the horse instead sounds wrong to me. (Maybe offer to cover the trailering costs, and any fees that would apply to the time he was there for you. Then ask to have the rest of those costs applied to the lease fee for the next month). I would also be a little ticked (to put it lightly) that the second show sounds like it’s trying to be done without you finding out about it until the last minute. If the horse will be gone for a week, then I think you should be reimbursed, but if it’s a few days, then honestly, I wouldn’t fight about it.

In my experience, when one leases a horse, they “own” it to an extent. They can ride it when they want, and as long as it wasn’t specified in the contract, then it is their choice when to show it, etc. But… most of the horses I have leased have been a mutually beneficial relationship–owners have been too busy to ride, and I was a horse crazy kid that wanted to ride several times a week and show. But honestly, and I’m not one to get super worked up over stuff, but I would start looking for another horse to lease in case this doesn’t get resolved.

[OverandOnward]

I have no idea what is right or wrong, in terms of your contract, or in terms of what is customary for the kind of lease you have.

I only know that in your shoes I would drop that trainer and the horse like a hot rock and do my riding somewhere else. If I saw ex-trainer at shows, I would pretend I didn’t.

Trainer is obviously not treating you like someone trainer respects. You are unhappy. Time to move on. To a situation where you will feel things are fair and straightforward.

This isn’t about the trainer - by now you have a good picture of how this trainer looks out for your interests, and personally I wouldn’t expect it to change. This trainer seems to be used to gaming clients. So, this is about you - what kind of treatment you are willing to put up with. And pay for.

You are the one paying for the experience you want with your riding. Make sure you feel - you know - that you are getting a fair deal in return, and the satisfaction that is the entire reason behind your involvement in horses. Only you will look after you. Don’t count on anyone else to look out for your interests (although it would be nice if you could be associated with a pro who does). If you are posting this question on an internet forum, clearly you are not getting either fairness or satisfaction.

I never understand this, but sometimes horse people let the power in the rider-trainer relationship become reversed, between trainer and client. Client is hiring the trainer for a service. Client is not at the whim of the trainer - it’s the other way around.

Good luck and hope you find a happy solution, whatever you decide to do.

[CrankyHorse12]

The thing is, things were going fine, up until this last show. I’m done with multi-day shows for now–I can’t afford to spend money like this if something happens and I can’t ride (especially if we show out of state).

What about the prize money? I was always under the impression that it goes toward the horse’s show bill (to the person paying for the horse and show fees). I have no issue with the other rider using the money to pay for her entries but shouldn’t the rest have gone to me, since I paid all of the other costs? This rider simply used the money toward the bill for her own horse. She was essentially a catch rider for mine.

[Vindicated]

My opinion, as I see it does not necessarily pertain to your lease/training contract.
1st issue-no way in Hades would I ask a customer to pay show fees (grooming & braiding) if they were unable to show. Day fees to care for horse yes-except that you asked to bring horse home. I personally would have billed other rider or eaten them (as owner). As a client, no way would I pay any braiding, show grooming or Med fees. Stall, tack splits, day fees , and trainer per diem would be your responsibility. Again, as a trainer/owner I would have eaten the day fees-personally.

2-prize money goes to whomever paid for the classes. Period.

3. OH H3!! NO!. Horse stays home or you pay 3/4 lease fee (for week show). I assume you have a full lease? If only partial it does change things.

The shoes and vet stuff is inconsequential. You would not have even thought about it if you had use of horse.

[PonyPenny]

[QUOTE=CrankyHorse12;8706691]

What about the prize money? I was always under the impression that it goes toward the horse’s show bill (to the person paying for the horse and show fees). I have no issue with the other rider using the money to pay for her entries but shouldn’t the rest have gone to me, since I paid all of the other costs? This rider simply used the money toward the bill for her own horse. She was essentially a catch rider for mine.[/QUOTE]

In my experience the prize money automatically goes to owner of the horse unless specified otherwise. There is a section on the entry form for that. Who is listed as the owner at shows? In the shows I have done, where prize money was awarded, a check is mailed as opposed to taking it off the show bill.

[Vindicated]

Just going to say, if you paid that show bill especially braid bill without squabbling-you just set a precedent that you can be walked on. Personally, I would have paid the braider and told trainer I was deducting from next months lease. Or if trainer paid braider and billed-I would have laughed at trainer. And possibly not politely.

[Vindicated]

Also, if I remember correctly. In order to get prize $ you need to have a W-9 on file with show office.

[CrankyHorse12]

Problem was, I paid those bills via my horsey friend (not with our barn) who I sent over to get my stuff (had an awful ankle sprain so was stuck on couch). She wrote out checks for me at the direction of trainer and I was on really floaty meds at the time and just didn’t think to question the charges. I found out about the braiding fees later.

The horse is a full lease and this feels like he went from being “mine” to I can’t ride for a week or two and I pop into the barn to find that someone else is riding him (as per owner, which is fine–she has every right to pick a substitute if I can’t ride) and now possibly showing him.

So owner keeps prize money even if horse is a full lease with leasee paying show costs?

[Vindicated]

I have always followed the prizes belong to whomever paid class fee. She wasn’t a true catch rider for you, as you didn’t pay trainer day fees, class fees etc. If I’m riding for a customer, they pay all fees, me & keep all prizes (but I never resumed my army status-even after being out the competitive side/pro training for a decade). Now a few times I loaned out one of my good horses to a student to learn on-they paid the bills, they keep the prizes. Now I get that you paid stall fee & tack split, but you were responsible for those even if you took horse home.

If my buddy gets hurt on the first day of a multi day show, and I ask to ride her horse. I’m paying the class fees, training fees, & keeping the prizes. Now personally, if I show my buddies horse-even stepping into the pro divisions, the horse has a better shot at the prize money than it did with my ammy buddy…

Actually, I had a similar thing happen when I was a kid. I left my hunter at a show to leave for USPC nationals. Another girls horse came up lame & both trainer & mom agreed she could show MY hunter. They ended up champion in her division-which was a step down from my division. My hunter came home lame & was out for a month. I finished out the season (2 shows)at the lower height-same as the other girl did. End of the year awards roll around and he gets prizes in both divisions. Everyone felt I should give prize to the other girl, I was pissed. She rode him in 4 classes, got less than half the points. I was 14 and very indignant about this. I did end up offering her the prizes, but am still mad at my mom & trainer when I think about it-mainly because my horse came home broken.

Not that it matters a ton, but I assume the other rider is more advanced? I assume this because otherwise trainer probably wouldn’t be pushing for her to show your horse.

Had I been the other rider, I probably would have split the stall & tack with you-even if I didn’t win.

[Peggy]

IMHO prize money should go to whoever paid for horse to be at show (hauling, grooming, braiding, day/training fees, entries, etc.). Unless lease contract says otherwise. And get nice gift within rules for person who rode. If the expenses were split it might get more complicated.

The last few entry forms I filled out had a prize money payee section which you left blank if the owner was the payee.

[Soaponarope]

Ugh. I’m sorry CrankyHorse and I don’t blame you for being cranky.

When DD was a junior she catchrode a bunch; never, ever kept the prize money to go on our bill. The money should go to the horse. Any prizes, ribbons, etc. should also go to the horse. I’m assuming she wasn’t riding in an eq division, right?

Even if she was, it sounds to me as if this isn’t a true catchride at any rate, because the horse is already under lease. She’s not filling a division, etc., she’s looking for a ride. I would think actually not only should you get the prize money refunded to you, but you should receive a lease fee for her to ride the horse. She should also pay for the braiding. Basically, she’s sub-letting the horse from you.

Stalls are non-refundable so I think you are stuck with that.

If owner wants someone else to ride the horse, then at the very least the other rider should pay for the cost of showing if not pay you a lease fee.

It seems to me you’ve been treated pretty badly. I would talk to the trainer in person at the very least and try and get your money back. If you want to stay with her.

[Soaponarope]

Ugh. I’m sorry CrankyHorse and I don’t blame you for being cranky.

When DD was a junior she catchrode a bunch; never, ever kept the prize money to go on our bill. The money should go to the horse. Any prizes, ribbons, etc. should also go to the horse. I’m assuming she wasn’t riding in an eq division, right?

Even if she was, it sounds to me as if this isn’t a true catchride at any rate, because the horse is already under lease. She’s not filling a division, etc., she’s looking for a ride. I would think actually not only should you get the prize money refunded to you, but you should receive a lease fee for her to ride the horse. She should also pay for the braiding. Basically, she’s sub-letting the horse from you.

Stalls are non-refundable so I think you are stuck with that.

If owner wants someone else to ride the horse, then at the very least the other rider should pay for the cost of showing if not pay you a lease fee.

It seems to me you’ve been treated pretty badly. I would talk to the trainer in person at the very least and try and get your money back. If you want to stay with her.

[pinkpony321]

At the very least, charging you for braiding/grooming that you didn’t use was shady AF.

[Highflyer]

[QUOTE=CrankyHorse12;8706709]
Problem was, I paid those bills via my horsey friend (not with our barn) who I sent over to get my stuff (had an awful ankle sprain so was stuck on couch). She wrote out checks for me at the direction of trainer and I was on really floaty meds at the time and just didn’t think to question the charges. I found out about the braiding fees later.

The horse is a full lease and this feels like he went from being “mine” to I can’t ride for a week or two and I pop into the barn to find that someone else is riding him (as per owner, which is fine–she has every right to pick a substitute if I can’t ride) and now possibly showing him.

So owner keeps prize money even if horse is a full lease with leasee paying show costs?[/QUOTE]

Unless your lease specifies that other people can ride the horse, or that you are required to ride it, that’s not true.

The prize money thing should have been worked out in advance, but the logical thing in this case would have been for it to go to the person who paid the entry fees. But that shouldn’t have affected her paying for her share of the expenses-- even if she was last in every class.

[NCRider]

Your trainer is a crook. This entire situation is beyond shady. She’s willing to steal thousands of dollars from you without thinking twice. People like that normally belong in jail. Find a new trainer. She has shown you she will cheat and steal from you to your face. What is she doing/willing to do when you’re not looking?
If her defense is that all of her peers are crooks too or that her other clients would let her steal from them this way, laugh in her face.
If you are not willing to move, then demand a reduction in the next lease fee to cover the entire amount she stole from you this month.

[trubandloki]

[QUOTE=pinkpony321;8706751]
At the very least, charging you for braiding/grooming that you didn’t use was shady AF.[/QUOTE]

The other way to look at this is that the barn agreed to provide a certain amount of work to a groom and a braider. The fees paid were more like non-refundable agreed upon fees.

If nothing else I think the OP needs to have a conversation with the trainer about what is going on and why they had to pay these fees.

[fordtraktor]

[QUOTE=trubandloki;8706842]
The other way to look at this is that the barn agreed to provide a certain amount of work to a groom and a braider. The fees paid were more like non-refundable agreed upon fees.

If nothing else I think the OP needs to have a conversation with the trainer about what is going on and why they had to pay these fees.[/QUOTE]

Yes, but someone did use the braiding. The person who actually rode the horse. At the VERY least, the show grooming and braiding should have been billed to the rider! the prize money could have offset them. It’s crazy unfair to bill OP for it, IMO.

[pinkpony321]

[QUOTE=trubandloki;8706842]
The other way to look at this is that the barn agreed to provide a certain amount of work to a groom and a braider. The fees paid were more like non-refundable agreed upon fees.

If nothing else I think the OP needs to have a conversation with the trainer about what is going on and why they had to pay these fees.[/QUOTE]

agreed with fordtraktor- trainer wanted her horse shown? either she or the catch rider should have paid that bill.

if grooming was more like “daycare,” then I get that… but when I was in a full-service big time show barn situation, we had daily “daycare” meaning stalls, feeding, tacking up for rides, lunging, etc. which you paid no matter if you were showing or not… and then we had an extra charge for someone to actually spit shine your horse for the ring and make sure all of the show day extras were done.

I have been around the big A’s plenty and been billed for piddly things like duct tape but I have never been charged for a braiding job that I didn’t use or that wasn’t done. most of those braiders at those venues have zero trouble filling their dance cards!