Updated: What seems like a crappy situation. Gimme opinions.

[Winding_Down]

[QUOTE=hb;8710560]
I will confess that I haven’t read all 9 pages so possibly someone else has said this. If I were in this situation I would have a sit-down with the trainer and explain that these circumstances were not to my liking to the extent that she is coming close to losing my business.

It’s possible she thought having the other person show the horse was an advantage to you, to keep the horse going while you were off. It’s also possible she doubled-charged both of you for the show, taking advantage of the opportunity. A third possibility is she’s just an idiot with no sense of how to treat her clients.

Having someone else show the horse for a week while you’re paying a full-lease fee for the month is ridiculous.

If she’s not willing to work with you after you make your concerns clear to her, you need to vote with your feet and find another trainer, or accept that you’re going to bankroll this horse for other riders. Hopefully she’ll “get it” and work with you to charge fairly for what you’re getting.[/QUOTE]

well-said. thank you.

[eclipse]

We were at a show a few years ago and a horses rider got hurt just like the op. If wasn’t feasable to take her horse home but she did fly home. So she just paid for the stabling and daycare (muck stall, feed ) and the rest of us took turns to handwalk and hack him… No more classes for him just because his rider wasn’t able to ride! And injured rider was not charged for us lightly hacking him… We were all glad to help her out. Yes this horse was going better than some others, but not once did it ever cross anyone’s mind that another person should now get to show him instead!
Op, you’re being taken advantage of!

[hb]

[QUOTE=CrankyHorse12;8710207]
I’m in Florida, but in a region saturated with trainers[/QUOTE]

Makes it easier to find another barn!

[paw]

When someone shows you who they are, believe them.

[SuzieQNutter]

For the money you have paid for a month, you could probably have transported one of my horses from Australia and me to do the braiding, grooming, day care, training rides, etc etc, etc.

[keysfins]

OP, I actually HAVE read all ten pages to this point. Sounds like a very bad deal for you, and I’m sorry you are hurt, as well.

Have you worked out on paper the itemized show bill that the trainer gave you, and what you should have been charged? And have you clarified/included any prize winnings? Having all that in black and white, itemized, will be a useful tool that will be hard to argue about when you have your meeting.

I would second the suggestion of having another person there with you when you meet with trainer, as was mentioned earlier. Not because you aren’t capable of having the conversation that needs to happen, but more to have someone there to be YOUR advocate, your supporter. Aaaaand just in case, you have a witness, so the trainer is less likely to try to pull any crap with you.

I also like the idea of direct yes or no questions, because the response, even the non-verbal parts, will tell you a great deal. I would love to be a fly on the wall when you meet, and ask trainer very plainly, yes or no, if she double-billed the second rider, too.

If it helps you organize your thoughts, you may want to plan your conversation in the form of a business meeting agenda.

It might be something like this:

A. Bill for the show and accounting

B. Current lease agreement and terms; what is customary practice in a 100% lease agreement

C. Revising/updating the lease agreement to include items that need to be added

D. Review of discussion, date for follow up meeting

It may help to say that you need to ask her to put on her “Trainer” hat for items 1 and 2, and then change to her “Horse Owner Lessor” hat for the rest.

1. Begin with the show bill, show the trainer’s itemized bill, and YOUR itemized bill. Show what you believe to be correct, factoring in the prize winnings.

2. Get a solid agreement and commitment on what amount is due back to you, and when you will receive it FROM THE TRAINER. (I would keep that accounting clean and clear–get a check from trainer for the show bill, NOT a discount or decrease in the next month’s lease fee or the like. You can just say that you are keeping your own accounting of your horse expenses and need to keep your records of expenses in correct categories.)

3. Move on to the lease agreement as it currently stands, and list out the items in the agreement that support your position as leasing the horse 100%. If the lease does not contain such language, you can take the many suggestions on this thread, and say that your understanding of a 100% lease is X, y and z, as well as 1, 2 and 3. And that you will require a revised lease agreement to contain those terms.

4. Add in any further terms that you feel are necessary, such as whether someone else can or cannot ride the horse at ANY time, take horse to shows, etc. This is one place you can indicate YOUR control over what happens with the horse.

If you have been less-than-sure about what a lease agreement normally covers, this is where you can make it known that you DO, in fact, know what is customary in a 100% lease agreement. It will also show that you will not accept any more attempts by the trainer to bullsh*t you! If you loff the horse and have liked the trainer, now is the time to indicate that you wish to continue the lease, orrrrr NOT.

5. Review the four points discussed as clarification that both parties are in agreement, and offer to write up a summary of your discussion, and a new lease agreement. You may offer to do so, as a working draft, that you both go over to make a final draft.

Do NOT allow trainer to bullsh*t or steer the conversation into 800 directions. Simply repeat, “Please let me continue on this topic, I want to be sure I cover these important points with you, for clarification that will benefit both of us.” (Try hard not to roll your eyes while saying that.)

These are only suggestions to keep an organized plan for your meeting. Your “meeting agenda” may look different than the examples above. Having it organized, planned out, written out and thought out will be very useful to you to stay on track. It also shows that you are approaching the situation in a professional, unemotional manner, just the same as any other business type meeting. “Wait on that thought please, I want to continue discussing item 2 right now.” If you tend to take notes during a business conversation, bring a notebook and jot down the important bits. And let trainer see you doing that.

Apologies for the length, I was attempting to include the many comments and suggestions held in the previous ten pages!

[keysfins]

Oh, and I hope you have a satisfactory resolution and continue with the horse if you wish to. Pleeeez post with an update when you can, no matter how it goes. You have a large group of rail birds rooting for you!

[foursocks]

So, out of interest I’ve been trying to put myself in this situation as the person who owns the horse and I just keep coming up with the fact that your trainer is a jerk. I half-lease out my older horse. His young rider events him, which is what he loves doing (and I don’t), and pays for about 60% of his monthly expenses as far as board and shoes. When he needs his shoes drilled and tapped for studs she pays for that, as well as any and all expenses related to shipping and showing and lessons.

I take care of big stuff like vet bills, hock injections, etc., just because I would do that regardless of whether or not I was leasing him out (so it is already in my budget), and because her family cannot afford those things. He lives at the barn where I keep my other horse and her trainer, who manages the barn, is one of my best friends. I supply things like his blankets, his bit and other tack, boots, and so on, but she is free to use her own stuff as long as it fits and I/her trainer approves. <— she enjoys doing this because she is a kid and likes to think of him as her horse, which is great- she adores him.

Ok, so- if she got hurt and my horse was already entered into an event that I wanted him to compete in I would take on the entry fee, the fee for her trainer to compete him, shipping fees if I couldn’t trailer him myself, braiding, and so on. If she wanted him to compete then I would have nothing to do with it, as per usual, other than agreeing to the new plan. That’s the way it works, or should.

[JBD]

Of course a trainer wants as many fees as possible out of their horse. Doesn’t make it right though.

You gave her an opportunity to make it right. She wasn’t smart enough or didn’t care enough to take it. She’s not in it for the long haul, at least not with you as a client. If you want to continue leasing this horse, lay down some rules like getting permission for another rider, the other riders fees offset yours where appropriate, etc. Or not, with a full lease, I don’t see room for the trainer to squeeze another rider in.

[findeight]

On the subject of everybody agreeing? On one hand, that part is true, we rarely agree on anything. On the other hand, on those rare occasions where we do agree? Almost a guarantee the OP will ignore the unanimous advice…

On the subject of grooms, don’t judge people who use them on the grounds you don’t. Different folks, different circumstances. Heck, Olympic and other top level riders step off and hand the reins to a groom, even in Eventing. OP was at a big AA show running at least a week, she doesnt have to skip work and live at the Showgrounds all week to insure quality care, that’s what grooms do. Pro braiders do a better job and owners don’t have to be there in the wee hours to braid on show day.

[CrankyHorse12]

Actually the unanimous advice has really helped me solidify my thoughts and I fully intend on taking it. In fact, I emailed owner/trainer this weekend to tell her that I would not be showing at this point (we had a few potential opportunities to show both locally and further away in the next month). She hasn’t responded.

Where I’m wavering (and the reason why I only addressed the more immediate issue of showing yesterday) is whether I want to walk completely right now (as some have suggested) or sit trainer down and discuss these issues bluntly (as others have suggested). I’m in the camp of thought that if someone has these characteristics (opportunistic, etc) there’s not much to be done to change them (especially in cases where there’s no ambiguity like this one)…

[keysfins]

Good luck, CrankyHorse, with your ultimate decision. While it is true you can’t change another person’s basic character, you CAN let them know that specific behaviors are unacceptablein a business relationship.

[Peggy]

A trainer friend once said to me that “no amount of training will change the essential character of the horse.” Applies also to people IMHO.

[paw]

[QUOTE=CrankyHorse12;8711241]
I’m in the camp of thought that if someone has these characteristics (opportunistic, etc) there’s not much to be done to change them (especially in cases where there’s no ambiguity like this one)…[/QUOTE]

I agree with your thinking here. Pulling the plug and walking away can be difficult, but in cases like this it’s often the best thing. If you stay, you’ll need to be vigilant to make sure that the deal you strike is the deal you get (which can be exhausting).

[Ambitious_Kate]

OP, feel for you. HOping you can just put your toys down and walk away. Nasty piece of luck, there. That was badly played out, on the part of the owner, but I think the key word here is “played”. As in, you were.

Really sorry it happened.

[SweetTalk]

I’m sure there are people out there with positive lease experiences but…it sure is easy for things to go wrong. I’d never do it again, I don’t think.

[JustJump]

[QUOTE=CrankyHorse12;8706600]
Hi all,

Welcome to my alter, so glad you could join me

I would like opinions/advice on a scenario…I’m not quite sure what is correct/acceptable, what is wrong, and what is ethically fuzzy.

For the past 6 months, I have been full-leasing a horse for a not insignificant lease fee. Lease is month-to-month, basic contract with owner who is also the trainer.

First part of scenario: About 3 weeks ago, I went to a week-long show. Ended up getting injured very early in the week and could not continue riding (this occurred in the warm up and I didn’t even end up showing). Had the option logistics-wise to bring horse back to the barn, but owner/trainer wanted him to stay and show. So stay he did, but I was charged (and ended up paying) about 1.5K in show-related fees (including grooming and braiding, services I did not use).

Second part of scenario: In my absence, owner/trainer had another rider show my horse, and the other rider won a not insignificant amount of prize money. This other rider would not have competed in these divisions otherwise. All of the prize money went toward the other rider’s bill and none of it went toward my horse’s fees.

Third part: Then, I hear secondhand that owner/trainer wants my horse to show with the other rider later this month (to a show I will not be attending, but I have paid lease fee and board for this month), when I’ll be back in commission (i.e., when I am physically able to ride again). Email owner/trainer who gives me a vague response as to whether or not my horse will be going to the show with the other rider. That was it. I think that if horse is going to be taken to a show by someone other than me, I need to be reimbursed for that portion of the lease fee (and perhaps at least asked?).

I’m more than a little cranky because I have spent over 5K this month in lease fee, board, and show fees. Also horse needed different shoes and minor vet care in order to show–all paid for by me.

So what should have happened/should happen here? Should I be on the hook for all show expenses if owner/trainer wanted horse to stay and I didn’t? Should other rider’s prize money should have gone toward part of my bill? What should happen financially if owner wants someone else to show the horse?[/QUOTE]

I can’t imagine you would have signed a lease that would specify you’d be on the hook for someone else’s trainer/show/stall/daycare fees in the event you are injured.

Some of it I suppose, could be justified if and only if something you had done to the horse in the course of your obtaining your injury might have meant the horse needed a fix (did you crash it, cause it to lose confidence through negligent or poor riding–this is all a huge stretch because one must assume you were well matched with the horse per the trainer’s leasing it to you). But that would more probably have resulted in actual training rides, not the horse being taken over by another rider.

IOW, no, you should not have been on the hook for the horse’s fees if someone else continued to show it. They should have picked up ALL the bills from that point on.

If this not something your trainer wants to work out, I’d take advantage of the month to month aspect and start shopping for a new trainer.

[CrankyHorse12]

[QUOTE=JustJump;8711758]
I can’t imagine you would have signed a lease that would specify you’d be on the hook for someone else’s trainer/show/stall/daycare fees in the event you are injured.

Some of it I suppose, could be justified if and only if something you had done to the horse in the course of your obtaining your injury might have meant the horse needed a fix (did you crash it, cause it to lose confidence through negligent or poor riding–this is all a huge stretch because one must assume you were well matched with the horse per the trainer’s leasing it to you). But that would more probably have resulted in actual training rides, not the horse being taken over by another rider.

IOW, no, you should not have been on the hook for the horse’s fees if someone else continued to show it. They should have picked up ALL the bills from that point on.

If this not something your trainer wants to work out, I’d take advantage of the month to month aspect and start shopping for a new trainer.[/QUOTE]

Oh god, no. None of that was in the lease. The horse can get a bit punky at shows–but nothing I can’t handle and nothing out of the normal repertoire for an athletic horse who is usually a good boy. After his ungentlemanly behavior that morning (both when I fell and in an earlier ride he was frisky and pulled in a manner in which I do not approve), he absolutely would have benefitted from schooling, even a trip or two around a course. But that doesn’t mean “Oooh who wants to ride Horsie and win some stuff?” while I’m out of commission. And even if winning was a fluke (who knew the new rider would get along with my horse), that prize money needed to go to the person who funded horse’s show vacation and spa days. The more responses I have gotten on this thread the angrier I get.

[CrankyHorse12]

P.S. When I’m done with trainer I’m going to mail her a hard copy of this thread.

[keysfins]

[QUOTE=CrankyHorse12;8711847]
P.S. When I’m done with trainer I’m going to mail her a hard copy of this thread.[/QUOTE]

Awesomeness.