Sketchy, sketchy.
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Yeah. OP, I would definitely bring it up and unless assured it was a big mistake and it is immediately made good to you or offset on your next bill, I would find a new trainer who is not going to charge you for a bunch of services you aren’t using. Trainers that do this – it doesn’t get better, IMO. They will find other ways to pad your bill if they find you are reading the line items carefully. An ethical trainer won’t treat you that way.
But the shoes, vet, other expenses of being at a show – you can expect to pay those even if you get hurt or if the horse gets hurt and you can’t show. it happens. it is what the horse incurred that it otherwise wouldn’t have that is at issue. If you wanted to send the horse home, and trainer wanted to keep it – then I would expect the trainer to stop charging you for the extra days she wanted to keep the horse, and bill the day care, etc to the person using it the extra time. But you would still pay for the stall itself in its entirety, and the shipping, and your lease because you would have incurred those costs anyway. it would be NICE if the other rider split them with you but not mandatory.
Just say “no” to the extra show, since you will be able to ride again.
Much like everyone else is saying, this just sounds wrong.
When I was riding another owners horses, they paid for all fees for the horse to be shown, I did not keep any prize money, ribbons, roses, etc everything went to the owner.
Now if your leasing the horse, and you got hurt at the show, and you said horse can go home, trainer wants horse to show, the trainer should then assume the fees for the horse to be shown, not you. You would have been responsible for any scratch fees, your stall, tack split etc.
Since you paid for everything the prize money should have gone to you, but that should have been designated on the original entry form you filled out for your show. which would not have changed, even though there was a rider change at the last minute.
If you have leased the horse for the current month that the trainer wants to send the horse to another show with the new rider, then that week needs to be deducted from your lease amount or credited to your next months lease, assuming you are leasing another month.
Personally, I would not continue to stay in this situation and be walked all over by this trainer. Clearly this trainer has no respect for you. I don’t know your location but I am sure there are plenty more barns and horses out there that you could lease.
Good luck, and feel better soon
OP, if you covered those expenses, would it then make the rider a pro? Just wondering about the level of compensation, etc. I would check the USEF rules on amateur status and see if any of the expenses you paid would matter.
This may give you some leverage in the bills you are being asked to pay.
I am all for giving people the benefit of the doubt, while asking point blank about the situation. The trainer is either cheating you (billing you for things which you did not use-ie: braiding) or made a mistake. Ask her.
My thoughts:
- who does the trainer’s books? Trainer, does she have someone else. Perhaps it is a communication issue
- quite possibly the trainer wasn’t organized and just billed out as they had it in their QuikBooks, xcel folder whatever. Not everyone is great keeping track and making notes (I know they should be but it happens)
- I would bring the bill and ask the trainer. Set aside some time when people are not all over and you can talk 1:1, [B][U]this may be a big oops, as you have not had any issue in the past.
[/U][/B]IME, prize money goes to offset the bills of the horse for the classes it won OR the check is mailed to the owner, if that section is filled out on the entry. That isn’t necessarily shady as there are tons of ways to do it, it depends on what is agreed on or filled out.
Yes, I’d be CrankyHorse, as well. But before jumping to conclusions I would have a discussion. Bring the bill and write out your points and go through it with the trainer.
Its one thing if the trainer lays out a rationale for paying for these expenses/fees and you agree to it - say, you own a green horse (or maybe the leased horse is on the green side of things but fancy enough that the steep lease fee is still justified), it might be totally logical for the horse to compete for miles and for you to pay for them. But this would need to be discussed in advance, and agreed upon (including an agreement on split of the winnings).
From your OP, it does not sound like this was discussed and its unacceptable for the trainer to spend your money with such disregard for your own preferences/interests. I would gather up the bills, and schedule a meeting with your trainer. Explain to her that your friend paid the bill while you were laid up and didn’t ask questions, but it is now time to sort out who is owed what. Figure out what you feel your share is in advance - you owe stabling, your own part of the entries depending on scratch policy, shipping, etc - but also be fair (i.e. the extra trip to bring your horse home if he had left would probably have been an extra charge - factor that into what you are willing to pay).
I think her reaction should dictate your next move, which may well include cancelling the lease fee and moving on. It would be exhausting to constantly worry about what expenses your trainer will be racking up on your account.
The only way I can see it being okay for the horse to show and you to foot the bill is if the trainer felt that this was needed as training for you to continue to compete the horse successfully. This occurs to me because you said you got hurt in the schooling ring. I don’t know if it was because the horse was being naughty and needed some show training or if it was a freak thing.
That being said, if the trainer felt the horse needed to show for your benefit they should have:
- explained their rationale
- gone over what fees you would be responsible for
- ensured, since you were paying, prizes went to reduce your show bill.
This situation is the exact reason why I will never pay a lease fee on a horse who is owned by my trainer. Too much conflicted interest. An owner is the horse’s advocate, a trainer should be YOUR advocate. When you and the horse are at odds, who does she prioritize? I think this show gave you the answer.
Viewed from a trainer’s perspective, unfortunately, you are short term. You may lease one year, two years, but probably not 10-15 years or the equivalent of this horse’s show career. There will be others after you and it seems like your trainer is setting herself up for a nice fat lease fee down the road by getting this horse to as many shows at possible. And she’s doing it on your bill.
Not cool. Not right.
Now you need to sit down, face to face, and figure out how to go forward with this situation. Make it very clear you have no problem walking and your money is just as good at other barns.
I’ve been in similar situations before. Most times, the trainer realized my loss of income sucked way more than the horse missing one show. Once, I was told to walk. Fine. I ended up leasing a much better horse for less money. It all works out in the end, OP.
Everything you are asking basically depends upon what is in the lease agreement, BUT:
Being as the horse is the one judged, the prize money goes with the horse (by way of the horse’s owner, which, in a full lease situation, is you). Therefore, it would be fair for the other rider’s entries on your horse to be offset by your horse’s winnings and the other expenses for your horse to also be offset by these winnings. For the winnings to be applied to the other rider’s expenses beyond those directly related to your horse (i.e., her horse’s expenses) is wrong.
By the same token, any ribbons, etc should also go with the horse.
I don’t think it is unreasonable for you to be responsible for a “day care” fee, along with any scratch fees if the horse did not show in your original division, hauling fees, and stall fees, but if the trainer/owner is the one who wanted the horse to show, then the trainer/owner should have covered the grooming and braiding fees (if not the rider).
No, the other rider should not get to show the horse in the future. If trainer/owner wants other people riding the horse on whom you have a full lease, then trainer/owner needs to terminate the full lease and establish a partial lease agreement - because that’s what this is becoming. If nothing else, your full-lease fee should be waived or reimbursed for that time period.
Was the horse braided before you left? If not, you are not responsible. You are not responsible for class fees. You ARE responsible for hauling, stall fees and day care. Furthermore, YOU should have been asked if so and so could show your leased horse in your absence. Trainer gives up that right to make those decisions with a full lease agreement.
I would approach trainer with…We need to talk about the fees I was charged for xx show. I, in good faith sent my friend to write a check for my expenses but I feel there may have been a mistake. I was not informed someone else would be showing my full lease horse and I am not responsible for those expenses. I will expect a refund for the amount of $xx or credit toward my next board bill. I would expect in the future to be notified for approval if someone else wants to use my leased horse for a show mount as my budget is not set up for others to show the horse I lease for myself.
DO NOT GET WALKED ON! It is a downhill path if you do!
I think by spelling it out for trainer it will avoid further instances of letting you pay for others. If you get kickback from her on this, terminate lease and MOVE quickly!!!
Well, I just got off the phone with trainer/owner. I tried to keep my tone calm and respectful and ask concrete questions about the bills. Basically, she said that prize money goes to the rider, not the horse. She also said I owed multiple days in training because she coached another rider on him during a hack so that if I decided to show later in the week, he would be schooled. My warm-up debacle was a freak thing–I was mounting and he stepped away and I fell, right on my ankle. Immediately swelled up and needed X-rays to make sure nothing was broken. I think the conflict of interest is the issue here–it was in owners best interest to continue to show the horse whereas if I owned him I could have sent him home on my own accord and called it a day. I was stuck with all the fees because I didn’t have the power to make that call.
[QUOTE=CrankyHorse12;8707600]
Well, I just got off the phone with trainer/owner. I tried to keep my tone calm and respectful and ask concrete questions about the bills. Basically, she said that prize money goes to the rider, not the horse. She also said I owed multiple days in training because she coached another rider on him during a hack so that if I decided to show later in the week, he would be schooled. My warm-up debacle was a freak thing–I was mounting and he stepped away and I fell, right on my ankle. Immediately swelled up and needed X-rays to make sure nothing was broken. I think the conflict of interest is the issue here–it was in owners best interest to continue to show the horse whereas if I owned him I could have sent him home on my own accord and called it a day. I was stuck with all the fees because I didn’t have the power to make that call.[/QUOTE]
I find this so odd… its like " I lessoned someone else on your leased horse, so you should pay for that lesson because it was “training” ". IDK but I’ve always assumed that training was to be done by the trainer, riding the horse ???
trainer sounds like she’s taking advantage of you/has a different understanding of ‘full lease’…
Wow, that makes no sense to me. When I was a junior and my horses did the green divisions with my trainers and the childrens/juniors with me any prize money they won in the greens came to us (and we paid the fees for their time in the saddle totally apart from that). The money goes to the person paying the show fees. In this case, the other rider paid her own entry fee so having that covered by her winnings would seem totally reasonable, but then the balance should have gone to you since you paid the rest of the show fees for a horse that would not have been at the show had it not been for you.
I think your trainer took advantage of you when the opportunity presented itself at this show and seems to be gearing up to do it some more. The other fees at the show are your responsibility, but only if you are using those services- I cannot imagine why you would have had to pay a braider for not braiding, nor why you had to pay for someone else to have a lesson on the horse when you were not going to be competing. The day care, etc., is just part of the package for having the horse stay at the show, but it sounds like the trainer soaked you on everything else she could.
That makes entirely no sense, or at the very least, she should have presented the option to you first: “Do you want X to ride the horse so he will be schooled in case you make it back to show?” And if taking the horse home midweek was something you couldn’t do because you were dependent on the trainer for transportation, then yes, you are stuck with all the daycare, show costs, stall splits, trainer/groom housing and so on. And that sucks. But that is just how it goes when you don’t manage the transportation aspect. All the other stuff unfortunately just sounds like Bad Business Practices.
As for the braider thing, I wonder if the braider just had your name from the braiding list earlier in the week? And either laziness or just not good book keeping meant the trainer never updated it and told the braider to bill the rider? Or at least that’s what I thought before your update. Now I’m not so sure.
Either way, sounds like this kind of full lease arrangement isn’t working for you!
[QUOTE=CrankyHorse12;8707600]
Well, I just got off the phone with trainer/owner. I tried to keep my tone calm and respectful and ask concrete questions about the bills. Basically, she said that prize money goes to the rider, not the horse. She also said I owed multiple days in training because she coached another rider on him during a hack so that if I decided to show later in the week, he would be schooled. My warm-up debacle was a freak thing–I was mounting and he stepped away and I fell, right on my ankle. Immediately swelled up and needed X-rays to make sure nothing was broken. I think the conflict of interest is the issue here–it was in owners best interest to continue to show the horse whereas if I owned him I could have sent him home on my own accord and called it a day. I was stuck with all the fees because I didn’t have the power to make that call.[/QUOTE]
Since you have a month to month contract, I would give notice. Your trainer is a tool. If your ankle was sprained so badly you were looped out on painkillers, there was no way you were going to show later in the week. Unless your trainer is 12 yrs old, that should be pretty obvious.
If she coached another rider on the horse, that rider can pay the training for those days. You certainly didn’t get any use out of it.
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Trainer just emailed me a clarification–she rode horse twice before the other rider competed him and she charged me for those training rides.
And there was really no likelihood that I’d be able to ride–my ankle was purple on the side and so swollen it wouldn’t have fit in the boot.
There are lots of other horses in the world.
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and lots of other trainers.
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[QUOTE=CrankyHorse12;8707681]
Trainer just emailed me a clarification–she rode horse twice before the other rider competed him and she charged me for those training rides.
And there was really no likelihood that I’d be able to ride–my ankle was purple on the side and so swollen it wouldn’t have fit in the boot.[/QUOTE]
This is a lie. She’s had a few minutes to think about the story she just presented in defense of her behavior, realized it’s ridiculous, and is trying to give it more legitimacy by inserting a couple extra training rides that apparently had completely slipped her mind before.
I would also give notice. Having heard her explanation, hers is not a way of doing business with which I’d be comfortable.
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"Third part: Then, I hear secondhand that owner/trainer wants my horse to show with the other rider later this month (to a show I will not be attending, but I have paid lease fee and board for this month), when I’ll be back in commission (i.e., when I am physically able to ride again). Email owner/trainer who gives me a vague response as to whether or not my horse will be going to the show with the other rider. That was it. I think that if horse is going to be taken to a show by someone other than me, I need to be reimbursed for that portion of the lease fee (and perhaps at least asked?). "
Tell trainer the horse you leased is not going to the show if you are not showing.
Doesn’t matter if you can ride or not. Unless you agree to some sort of compensation, aka getting paid, to have someone else ride your lease, then it shouldn’t be happening.
Minimum I’d demand part lease and other rider takes over all show/ vet/farrier fees from now until after the show.
Otherwise, trainer can terminate the lease immediately (time is money) if they want other rider to use the horse.
Big girl panties time.
