Updated: What seems like a crappy situation. Gimme opinions.

[Lord_Helpus]

This does not pass the smell test.

I agree with the poster above; trainer realized how silly she was sounding, so she called back to give you a more plausible excuse.

I also had the same thought as another poster---- is this rider a professional? If she wasn’t, she sure is now. I might double check your fact situation with the USEF before having another talk with Trainer, but as I see it — money earned stays with the horse. If it goes with the rider and the rider is not the owner of the horse, then rider is riding on your behalf and is receiving money as a result of that riding.

In fact, just typing that makes it seem like a no brainer that she just broke her ammy status.

I am guessing that you did not have a written contract for the lease… Not the best thing, but I understand that many arrangements are made verbally, especially with the trainer. So this may be a ‘teachable moment’ about getting things in writing.

I know it is easy to sit behind the keyboard and tell someone to leave and get a new trainer — the horse world is not that black and white. But I really think you need to sit the trainer down, have a paper with your talking points in front of you and go through them one by one.

If at least 60% of the issues are not decided in your favor) then you have 3 choices:

1. pay up and shut up (in which case, this will happen again because you have let it happen once).
2. pay up but end the lease so you are not paying for a horse that other people are riding
3. pay up and leave the trainer.

Seems like you have already paid up – which is important for your reputation. Fair or not, you do not want the trainer to go around telling people that you are a deadbeat.

Just curious, was the catch rider from your barn (trainer was trying to make another customer happy)? Or was the trainer trying to improve the horse’s resume by having it win with a top [ammie] rider?

I would be more than cranky. I would be really pissed and would let it show. You are a better man than I, Gunga Din.

[D_BaldStockings]

[QUOTE=CrankyHorse12;8707681]
Trainer just emailed me a clarification–she rode horse twice before the other rider competed him and she charged me for those training rides.

And there was really no likelihood that I’d be able to ride–my ankle was purple on the side and so swollen it wouldn’t have fit in the boot.[/QUOTE]

So trainer basically rode and tuned up the horse for the catch rider on your dime?
hmph!

Just say no.

[INoMrEd]

I agree with some of the others. I would dump this trainer. She’s gouging you. I would be more than cranky and ask for a refund.

[Ghazzu]

[QUOTE=OverandOnward;8706677]

I only know that in your shoes I would drop that trainer and the horse like a hot rock and do my riding somewhere else.[/QUOTE]

That about sums it up for my advice.

[IPEsq]

@Lord Helpus;8707750

leave the trainer.

Just curious, was the catch rider from your barn (trainer was trying to make another customer happy)? Or was the trainer trying to improve the horse’s resume by having it win with a top [ammie] rider?

In either case, OP should not be on the hook for the training/braiding/grooming expenses unless OP was ok with footing the bill for another rider at the start. Sounds like that was not the case, since she wanted horse to go home. So, either rider pays or trainer/owner pays (or eats the expenses, as the case may be) because the showing is for rider’s or trainer’s benefit, not OP’s. In either case, the prize money goes to the horse. Sure, some people are happy to foot the bill for their horse to be shown by others, but this does not seem to be the case here. And even then, I’d still expect the prize money to go to the horse.

[Ghazzu]

[QUOTE=CrankyHorse12;8707600]
Well, I just got off the phone with trainer/owner. I tried to keep my tone calm and respectful and ask concrete questions about the bills. Basically, she said that prize money goes to the rider, not the horse. She also said I owed multiple days in training because she coached another rider on him during a hack so that if I decided to show later in the week, he would be schooled. My warm-up debacle was a freak thing–I was mounting and he stepped away and I fell, right on my ankle. Immediately swelled up and needed X-rays to make sure nothing was broken. I think the conflict of interest is the issue here–it was in owners best interest to continue to show the horse whereas if I owned him I could have sent him home on my own accord and called it a day. I was stuck with all the fees because I didn’t have the power to make that call.[/QUOTE]

If I were you I would walk (or limp) right now.
You have been had by someone who will screw you again.

[RugBug]

I usually stay pretty middle of the road regarding these things, but this one stinks really bad.

Stand firm.

1. You should not have to pay anything if the owner/trainer is the one that wanted you to leave the horse at the show.

2. Any rides necessary so other rider could show should be paid for by the other rider

3. Prize money goes to the horse. Honestly, I would say on this that ALL the prize money should come to you, because you didn’t ask the other rider to show the horse so why should the entries be deducted the entries (if she hadn’t have won, would you have been asked to pay her entries) BUT I would be flexible on that.

4. The horse you are leasing should NOT be going to another show with the other rider.

You are leasing the horse. It is, in effect, your horse to make decisions for. I get that it’s complicated because the trainer is the owner, but if she wants to maintain control of the horse, she shouldn’t lease him out.

(If you decide to let the horse go to the show, you need to have her pay a show lease fee to you. And it should be a higher portion than just monthly fee/days at show.)

Again, this all stinks to high heaven and I can tell you that I would no way be able to train with this person in the future. I value honesty and integrity above all else and I just don’t think this trainer has any of it.

(caveat - if OP is exaggerating or manipulating facts to make the situation more black and white, all my responses are null and void. (for instance: Trainer said “you can leave him at the show or take him home, your choice” and OP chose to leave him…well, show related fees are her responsibility)

[Groom_amp_Taxi]

In a hectic horse show environment where the lessor of a horse has just had to scratch her participation due to injury, I can see that things could get a little confused about who get billed for what as plans for the horse change. However, a trainer who truly is interested in doing the right thing for the lessor/client would be more open, after the fact, to figuring out where charges might have been misapplied and rectifying any mistakes. Instead, it sounds like in this situation, the trainer is outright lying about who the prize money should go to and manufacturing training rides that may not have even happened.

It’s unfortunate in this situation that the OP paid up before she could really investigate the details of what she was being charged. Maybe that will be a lesson others can learn from this.

Reading this thread from the start, the message that comes through loud and clear to me is that trainer does not value OP as a client and has her eye on other possible lessors for the horse.

[Soaponarope]

“Basically, she said that prize money goes to the rider, not the horse.”

On what planet? No. Nope. That is not how it works. She’s trying to pull one over on you.

Did you sign up for the show yourself? Or did she sign up her riders? At any rate, the person who receives the prize money is listed, with their social security number, on the entry form. That means that when you submitted the entry it would have stated the recipient of prize money and you would have signed the form. You may even be able to pull the record up on entries on line via Horse Shows Online if you signed up with them. Or you can ask her if you can see a copy of your entry form if she faxed it in, or ask the show secretary for one.

So if the money went to someone else, it means that she told the show secretary to change what the form designated which is not legal even if it happened. In that case you could talk to USEF about this, maybe on an email, which you cc to the trainer.

This is a very sketchy situation, and I’m sorry it’s happening to you.

[CrankyHorse12]

Thank you, all, for helping me think about these issues.

What just struck me is that trainer charged me to ride her own horse, but at the same time, she’s apparently making decisions for horse that don’t involve me. Pick a role. If he’s your horse and you are going to make decisions that don’t involve me fine, but don’t you dare charge me if you ride him. Or, if you want to act like he’s mine (thus, letting me make decisions, which did not happen) then go ahead and charge me if you sit on him. Huge conflict of interest and I’m really pissed.

Thank you also for pointing out that the prize money deal is not okay.

[Lord_Helpus]

In this case… Horse would have been entered under OP’s name. He was given a number. If adds/scratches were made, they would have all been made under that horse’s number. New rider would have been added as Rider #2 on the original entry blank. But that does not divert the prize money to rider #2, unless the office allowed it without thinking twice.

OP, did you sign the entry blank as owner?

If not, did the trainer enter for you and put herself down as owner and just put you in as Rider #1? That is the only way I can see that trainer would have the discretion to divert the winnings to Rider #2.

Does trainer usually do all the paperwork for shows? My trainer’s wife does all the entries, so she has all my numbers and I never deal with it. Now that I think about it, I never sign as owner — not sure who does…

I do know that shows are very accommodating when dealing with well known trainers.

But something is not sounding right.

[Unfforgettable]

You’re being treated as a walking checkbook, not a valued client. Trainer has figured she can “schmooze” you with the charges and will continue to wipe her feet on you until you stop being a doormat. You’re being used and taken advantage of. Don’t fall for the “but that’s how it works” crap. I’d find a new trainer and a new lease. Sounds a lot like the garbage a trainer I used to know did…anything for a buck. Her clients were more like a blind bunch of cult members with big bank accounts.

[CrankyHorse12]

The entry was under the trainer’s name as the owner of the horse–my name or that of the other rider doesn’t appear on the show bill.

[hillary_again]

I think your trainer got the prize money. Easy enough to find the other rider and ask her. Say you are following up on a mixup regarding the show office and you were told she received the prize $, and you are just checking to see that is accurate.
If she says no, she did not, then you have got your trainer in a really big lie. Next step is up to you.
If she says yes, she did, then you can assume that the trainer authorized that.

Posters are correct - typical arrangement is that the horses’s owner gets the prize $. In this case, the trainer is the “owner”, but she is fibbing on some parts of this story.

[Soaponarope]

Hmmmm. Every rider has to file an entry, I believe, under their name. The entry forms we’ve done for rated shows asks who owns the horse, who is the rider, trainer, etc. And separate from that, it asks for which individual receives the prize money, their social, and the rider’s signature. The person leasing the horse is not the owner, but they may be the recipient of prize money.

Even if the farm is using their own check to pay the show bill and then charging clients individually, each rider should actually have an entry and a bill.

[LaurieB]

Your trainer is a crook.

If you let this incident slide by and don’t end the lease, next thing you know the horse will be showing later this month with the other rider, and you will be charged for those show fees–under the guise that trainer and rider are “schooling the horse for you”.

There is no way I could continue to ride with a trainer only saw dollar signs when she looked at me.

[CrankyHorse12]

[QUOTE=Soaponarope;8707879]
Hmmmm. Every rider has to file an entry, I believe, under their name. The entry forms we’ve done for rated shows asks who owns the horse, who is the rider, trainer, etc. And separate from that, it asks for which individual receives the prize money, their social, and the rider’s signature. The person leasing the horse is not the owner, but they may be the recipient of prize money.

Even if the farm is using their own check to pay the show bill and then charging clients individually, each rider should actually have an entry and a bill.[/QUOTE]

Oh yes that’s what I have. So at the top it lists the horse and owner but the bill is itemized in that it shows my name and the others rider’s name and our respective divisions. I never actually showed but the bill I have has a few of my divisions on if because the entries were placed for upcoming classes (I got a copy of the bill before the last day of the show because I figured my fees like stall etc were fixed).

Oh and no one had my SS#. I sent in a check via trainer for the entry but never provided my SS#.

[Soaponarope]

[QUOTE=CrankyHorse12;8707885]
Oh yes that’s what I have. So at the top it lists the horse and owner but the bill is itemized in that it shows my name and the others rider’s name and our respective divisions. I never actually showed but the bill I have has a few of my divisions on if because the entries were placed for upcoming classes (I got a copy of the bill before the last day of the show because I figured my fees like stall etc were fixed).

Oh and no one had my SS#. I sent in a check via trainer for the entry but never provided my SS#.[/QUOTE]

Ok, but the entry form is different from the bill. All the info from the entry is not on the bill. It sounds as if you didn’t see or sign an entry form, which is not uncommon. But for the future (and I hope there is one apart from this trainer), you should make sure that you are designated as the recipient of the prize money.

That being said, I have never heard of any trainer doing this. Ever.

[CrankyHorse12]

Yeah never saw the actual entry–that was done for us by trainer.

[BeeHoney]

Next time around, either on this lease or your next, you know what to do. Say, “No thanks, I really prefer that no one else show Dobbin.” If the trainer pressures you, you could then negotiate by saying, “Ok, but obviously I would expect rider X to reimburse me for Y amount of the lease fee and pay all show related bills including, well of course…everything.” And if you have any responsibility for vet bills during a lease, I would also recommend clarifying that you will have no responsibility for any injuries, illnesses or vet bills occurring during that period of time or related to the show experience. Or you could stand your ground.

I think you recognize that there really is generally NO benefit to you from allowing the horse you are leasing to be used by a different rider. The downside is that the horse might be injured, have a bad experience, or that you might somehow at the end of the day be held responsible for related expenses.

Personally I think it was very opportunistic (to put it nicely) of your trainer to have her horse shown by another rider (possibly charging the other rider a fee to do so, and possibly keeping the prize money) while at the same time trying to make you pay the bills.