I wonder what she charged the other rider?
I
[QUOTE=BeeHoney;8707957]
Next time around, either on this lease or your next, you know what to do. Say, “No thanks, I really prefer that no one else show Dobbin.” If the trainer pressures you, you could then negotiate by saying, “Ok, but obviously I would expect rider X to reimburse me for Y amount of the lease fee and pay all show related bills including, well of course…everything.” And if you have any responsibility for vet bills during a lease, I would also recommend clarifying that you will have no responsibility for any injuries, illnesses or vet bills occurring during that period of time or related to the show experience. Or you could stand your ground.
I think you recognize that there really is generally NO benefit to you from allowing the horse you are leasing to be used by a different rider. The downside is that the horse might be injured, have a bad experience, or that you might somehow at the end of the day be held responsible for related expenses.
Personally I think it was very opportunistic (to put it nicely) of your trainer to have her horse shown by another rider (possibly charging the other rider a fee to do so, and possibly keeping the prize money) while at the same time trying to make you pay the bills.[/QUOTE]
I totally agree with the sentiment, but how do you say this to the horse’s owner (who is also the trainer)? I haven’t been able to ride while this stupid ankle heals and owner is having other rider lesson on my horse in the meantime. He needs to get ridden, and I think she can say by whom so she has that right at shows. Where I needed to be firm was that if he stayed, I wasn’t going to pay for it. Right?
Wow, it’s one thing to scam your clients, but to be so blatant about it with the client and others at the barn and to make such a small effort to cover it up or back pedal. Yikes!
Something tells me you’re not the only one that’s getting padded bills, it’s just that you noticed it and question it.
Sadly, I think this happens often in our industry, we have such wealthy people in our sport, chances are they don’t even see the bills, it just gets sent to an accountant who cuts the check, and unless it’s something outrageous they might not notice the $100 here and there that gets tacked on.
Do you guys remember the one lawsuit? With the invoices and the elusive “horse show meds” line? Pretty easy to pad on fees when you use vague descriptions like that.
[QUOTE=CrankyHorse12;8707971]
I
I totally agree with the sentiment, but how do you say this to the horse’s owner (who is also the trainer)? I haven’t been able to ride while this stupid ankle heals and owner is having other rider lesson on my horse in the meantime. He needs to get ridden, and I think she can say by whom so she has that right at shows. Where I needed to be firm was that if he stayed, I wasn’t going to pay for it. Right?[/QUOTE]
To me this would come down to the lease agreement then. If you have a full lease - you should be the only rider except where you give the consent, not the owner even. But it will depend on your agreement. Sounding more to me that you have a part lease with all the costs and non of the perks of full lease.
Please take with a grain of salt as in Australia the kind of lease/situation you are describing is very uncommon at least in my area/circle. A full lease means you get the ride and depending on the agreement all or part of the bills. If you don’t ride horse doesn’t get ridden.
The lease agreement is not as iron-clad as maybe it should be. If this was a full-year paid all up front or in large part where I was locked in, then I would have been more demanding. I still don’t really see an issue with owner/trainer arranging rides if I say, go on vacation or get temporarily sidelined with an injury. He’s a show horse and I can’t, say decide to let my beginner friend Bob ride him in my absence, so that discretion on her part makes sense. I cover all costs except for routine vet bills and we verbally agreed that major vet bills were her responsibility. We agreed at the start that I would cover performance-related issues (so for instance, he needed his hocks injected and I paid for that). I suppose if something happened like he went lame in the field and she tried to stick me with a major vet bill I could simply stop paying the month to month lease and then without anything specifying it in writing (and there isn’t) it wouldn’t be my problem.
Coming in late here, but the braiding you were charged for was most likely due to the other rider’s classes. If this was not agreed up front, that is not something you should pay for. I feel like this other rider is a working student,or someone who is talented, but maybe doesn’t have financial backing and the trainer is taking advantage of the situation.
I do agree with you that someone has to ride the horse you are full leasing when you are laid up, but I assume you are still paying for training?? So, what irks me is that I would expect those rides to be done by the trainer or assistant I am paying, not another ammy or junior as that is not what you are paying for. If you aren’t covering training while you are out then I would say you have less of a horse in this race, but if you are, you absolutely have a say that the trainer rides the horse. You need to get clarification ASAP on this upcoming show. Make it very clear you do not authorize that and will not accept any fees for “training” of the horse or whatever. That was a totally bogus comment IMO.
I’m so sorry this happened, and assuming we are getting the full story, I would definitely look elsewhere!
[QUOTE=CrankyHorse12;8707988]
The lease agreement is not as iron-clad as maybe it should be. If this was a full-year paid all up front or in large part where I was locked in, then I would have been more demanding. I still don’t really see an issue with owner/trainer arranging rides if I say, go on vacation or get temporarily sidelined with an injury. He’s a show horse and I can’t, say decide to let my beginner friend Bob ride him in my absence, so that discretion on her part makes sense. I cover all costs except for routine vet bills and we verbally agreed that major vet bills were her responsibility. We agreed at the start that I would cover performance-related issues (so for instance, he needed his hocks injected and I paid for that). I suppose if something happened like he went lame in the field and she tried to stick me with a major vet bill I could simply stop paying the month to month lease and then without anything specifying it in writing (and there isn’t) it wouldn’t be my problem.[/QUOTE]
I am so sorry you got hurt… That is awful. I hope you are feeling better very soon… and I am sorry your trainer is bullying you!!
I don’t think I have ever read a COTH thread where EVERYONE is pretty much saying the same thing to the OP…
If your okay with this rider riding your lease horse during your injury; then yes… but your paying the bills/have a lease it IS up to you not the trainer on the horses schedule. There are many horses that are full leased in a different barn than the owner/trainer and the owner of the horse doesn’t get involved with the horses day to day. Your situation is a bit different and seems like part of your issue here.
Maybe the horse would benefit from some time off anyway?? A good trainer IMHO would talk to you and make sure you are both on the same page and agree with the plan. I would also think a good trainer would try to help you out financially and have this other rider cover some of the expenses during your injury as she is benefiting.
I have a sneaking suspicion if your lease horse was injured right now by the “fill in rider” you would be on the hook for the vet bills. Especially since you only have a verbal understanding you cannot prove.
Your lease agreement language is important and sounds like it’s not very helpful to you as far as your rights etc.
And if you have a month to month lease agreement and just stop paying you would be liable for the payment. That is if you do have an agreement that states you must pay X dollars a month for the lease of the horse. The lease payment would be your responsibility regardless if the horse was injured by the fill in rider and the trainer wanted you to pay for the vet costs.
I agree with all the other posters on this one - I would be searching for a different situation because this could wind up costing you more than it already has with a trainer like that.
Or at least get a better lease agreement with all details in writing so you have something to lean on. I am so sorry you are dealing with this. Horses should be our enjoyment time not drama.
I do hope it works out well for you.
[QUOTE=CrankyHorse12;8707600]
Well, I just got off the phone with trainer/owner. I tried to keep my tone calm and respectful and ask concrete questions about the bills. Basically, she said that prize money goes to the rider, not the horse. She also said I owed multiple days in training because she coached another rider on him during a hack so that if I decided to show later in the week, he would be schooled. My warm-up debacle was a freak thing–I was mounting and he stepped away and I fell, right on my ankle. Immediately swelled up and needed X-rays to make sure nothing was broken. I think the conflict of interest is the issue here–it was in owners best interest to continue to show the horse whereas if I owned him I could have sent him home on my own accord and called it a day. I was stuck with all the fees because I didn’t have the power to make that call.[/QUOTE]
Oh yes, you DID have that power. Trainer is trying to take it away from you. But it is the trainer who waaaayy overstepped. She had no authority to do all that without your go-ahead.
100% lease means no one rides, etc., unless YOU say so. You shouldn’t be paying for any training rides you didn’t authorize in advance. No one else rides without your permission. If you don’t know something is going to happen, it doesn’t happen. Trainer continues to over-step since the show as well.
You aren’t on the hard core ankle-meds any more and can now tell her she over-stepped and acted improperly, on several points. She doesn’t get to have the last word just because she is practiced at taking advantage of clients. You gave her a chance to say her piece. You can now line out, item by item, each point where she violated your lease contract and each point at which she took advantage of your injured self.
In your place, I would be sending my next and final communication in writing - the list of transgressions above, along with an immediate termination of the lease. Regardless of what the lease says about notice period, I wouldn’t pay her another dime. She’s more than made her money on fees you should not have had to pay. The gravy train just came to a stop. I would not listen to any complaints or threats from her, either, now or later, wouldn’t matter what she threatens. I guess I am capable of being as big of a [fill in blank] as this trainer. :winkgrin:
It could be a lesson to the trainer: screw your clients and you’ll have to go out and find new ones on short notice. But a trainer this arrogant and manipulative is unlikely to learn anything. She’ll be twisting someone else’s checkbook around her fingers less than 24 hours of being dumped by you, most likely. :mad:
You sound like a nice person, and I’ll bet there is a much better experience waiting for you, somewhere. Do not let trainers or any other horse professional give you the run-around. Keep in mind: trainers work for you. You are the boss. Not the other way around. 
[QUOTE=CrankyHorse12;8707988]
… we verbally agreed that major vet bills were her responsibility. …[/QUOTE]
Oh dear. Trainer definitely saw you coming and the dollar signs in her eyes lighted up.
Run for the exit. People have an amazing ability to forget agreements that aren’t in writing. Something major bad happens to this horse tomorrow, you don’t want trainer chasing you for more and more and more money …
Please, get some help and support for your next trainer & lease arrangement before you commit, from people who are more experienced and more hard-nosed about these things. This should be fair and fun for you. But to make that happen, you need to learn more about how to look out for yourself as an ammy in the horse industry.
You are all one bunch of smart people :). I just looked up the USEF amateur rules and an amateur can accept prize money on their own horse but not someone else’s horse. It’s in black and white. So that must mean one of two things: rider is breaking amateur status or owner/trainer took prize money (beyond what covered the division fees–that part is clear on the bill that the money paid for them). Right?
In addition an amateur has to pay all of the expenses incurred on the horse(s) they ride, unless they’re just doing the under saddle on someone’s extra horse for them.
Thus, if were to show a friend’s horse, it would need to be my check in the horse show office. Now I’m not 100% sure how it works if the owner and someone else both show the horse, though that wasn’t the case here.
The rule in question (1306.2.k) from https://www.usef.org/documents/ruleBook/2016/GeneralRules/GR13-CompetitionParticipants.pdf):
Entries for non-under saddle classes in amateur sections at hunter, jumper or hunter/jumper competitions, must be paid either (i) directly to the competition by the Amateur or by the Amateur’s family or (ii) by someone whomthe Amateur or the Amateur’s family reimburses within 90 days of the last day of the competition for which entries were paid.
Leaving the other rider out of it for now, if you are not riding but the horse that you are leasing is still at the horse show amd showing (with the trainer, I presume) you still owe the groom and braiding fees.
How are you saying you did not use grooming services??? Someone still has to groom the horse whether you are riding it or not.
Putting the other rider back in,
1.) you should be asked first
2.) the finances should be worked out in advance. It is not unreasonable for you to ask the other rider to take over some of the horse’s show expenses if they are going to be taking over some of the riding.
I would handle this with a letter (email is fine) to your trainer, expressing your legitimate concerns about how the billing happened this time, and asking for clarification/indicating your expectations of expense sharing if rides are going to be shared in the future. If the other rider will be taking the horse to a show for a week next month what prorated deduction of your monthly lease fee can you expect and if there will be horse sharing at shows what expenses will be shared as well going forward? You believe x y or z would be fair, does that sound reasonable? etc etc and so on, just so everyone is on the same page going forward.
Also, the next time you are asked, “Can [anybody but you] ride the horse you are leasing,” you can always reply, “Absolutely, but can we clarify first which expenses they will be taking on?”
Reserve the pow wow talk for later, but if this trainer continues play fast and loose with your wallet, it probably won’t change and the only way to stop it then would be to ride elsewhere. With new trainers I ALWAYS set up the expectation that I want to be able to “predict my bill” with a high degree of accuracy and a low degree of surprises. Always have that talk early on so you set the expectation and can refer to it later on.
Grooming fees are usually on top of day fees. I don’t typically get my horses braided and to a show ring shine every day at home. Perhaps my horses are deprived but they definitely aren’t groomed every day. They are fed and cared for every day which is usually covered in the day fee.
[QUOTE=Highflyer;8707959]
I wonder what she charged the other rider?[/QUOTE]
This is my question as well. After reading the updates, I would not be so quick to assume the other rider broke their amateur status. I think it is just as possible that they paid training and showing expenses to the trainer as well. It sounds like this trainer would think double dipping is a-ok.
OP. do you know the other rider? Is there a way you can casually talk to them to find out if they paid as well?
[QUOTE=CrankyHorse12;8707851]
Thank you, all, for helping me think about these issues.
What just struck me is that trainer charged me to ride her own horse, but at the same time, she’s apparently making decisions for horse that don’t involve me. Pick a role. If he’s your horse and you are going to make decisions that don’t involve me fine, but don’t you dare charge me if you ride him. Or, if you want to act like he’s mine (thus, letting me make decisions, which did not happen) then go ahead and charge me if you sit on him. Huge conflict of interest and I’m really pissed.
Thank you also for pointing out that the prize money deal is not okay.[/QUOTE]
I liked this post, OP!
I think part of the reason this is so difficult/confusing is that your lease is not really a full lease. You pay his board basically, but your trainer is still paying for routine vet care and all major vet bills. I am not sure who is paying the farrier.
In a full lease you would be covering all those expenses too. He is 100% your responsibility.
[QUOTE=CrankyHorse12;8708180]
You are all one bunch of smart people :). I just looked up the USEF amateur rules and an amateur can accept prize money on their own horse but not someone else’s horse. It’s in black and white. So that must mean one of two things: rider is breaking amateur status or owner/trainer took prize money (beyond what covered the division fees–that part is clear on the bill that the money paid for them). Right?[/QUOTE]
This is true! The other rider was also riding someone else’s horse and even the trainer called it training! AND the rider was NOT covering the expenses for the rides. He/She is therefore no longer an amateur. Plain and Simple.
OP, this trainer has definitely crossed the line and her treatment of you is inappropriate at the very least and unethical and poor business for sure.
It is clear that the rider has violated amateur status and according to USEF, if the trainer has knowledge of this, she is also subject to disciplinary action from USEF.
Have you considered talking with the person who rode/showed/trained your horse? And the one who took it on a “training hack?”
I have just scanned the amateur rules and I suspect that your paying for entry fees and braiding is considered remuneration.
See USEF GR1306-7 for details.
[QUOTE=Peggy;8708207]
In addition an amateur has to pay all of the expenses incurred on the horse(s) they ride, unless they’re just doing the under saddle on someone’s extra horse for them.
Thus, if were to show a friend’s horse, it would need to be my check in the horse show office. Now I’m not 100% sure how it works if the owner and someone else both show the horse, though that wasn’t the case here.
The rule in question (1306.2.k) from https://www.usef.org/documents/ruleBook/2016/GeneralRules/GR13-CompetitionParticipants.pdf):
Entries for non-under saddle classes in amateur sections at hunter, jumper or hunter/jumper competitions, must be paid either (i) directly to the competition by the Amateur or by the Amateur’s family or (ii) by someone whomthe Amateur or the Amateur’s family reimburses within 90 days of the last day of the competition for which entries were paid.[/QUOTE]
oops! Just saw this. Yes, Yes, YES!
You can always submit an inquiry to USEF stating the details of the violation. You are anonymous (haha) and there is no cost to you.
Ooh, I didn’t realize the other rider was an ammy. Well, yeah. That changes all sorts of things.
I don’t know how attached you are to your trainer but I will say from experience that once trust has been broken it is really hard to stay with someone and not feel like you have to be hyper-vigilant (which is a huge drag). If you have other training options I would start to explore them so you can get out of this situation. If not, you need to get everything clarified and in writing so you don’t get hosed again.
OP, you are being taken advantage of.
When you pay a full lease, for whatever period of time, it is generally accepted that from a day to day perspective, it is your horse. If you allow another rider to sit on that horse, (possibly with the owner’s approval, which is legit) to lesson or show - that should be at the other rider’s expense, not yours.
The show fees should have been offset by any money won. Period.
I would not under any circumstances agree to pay for the horse to go to a different show with another rider at your expense. Up to you if you wish to let the horse go to the show at all, and if so, the person riding/showing/enjoying the horse should be paying the fees associated with the trip. In these circumstances, I would also want them to cover a pro rated portion of the lease.
As others have noted, it is easy to say “Fire the trainer! Find another horse!” in situations like these. Whether that is a reasonable option or not, depends in large part on what your other options are. If you have another alternative to lease a nice horse with a more ethical trainer, I would sure explore that pronto.
If not, then I would suggest a major sit down/re-negotiation is in order on your current lease. Get things straight with this trainer so that you are not just being treated like a convenient ATM machine. Get it all in writing.
I personally would probably walk rather than negotiate, because it’s been my experience that “professionals” like this don’t change their stripes. Good luck.
Grooming fees, yes. Braiding, only for the first day. There would be no need for the horse to be braided again on the OP’s dime. The other rider should have paid for braiding on subsequent day or days.
