Why would someone owe grooming and braiding fees for a horse that they are not showing?
It’s not supposed to go in a class, so braiding is no longer needed. The only reason the horse was braided was because the other rider showed the horse. Braiding fees, therefore, should be the other rider’s responsibility.
As for grooming? Not necessary either. There is no reason the horse needs to be groomed during the show if it’s not showing. Day care, yes. Grooming, no. If this trainer combines those into one fee, then fine. But if grooming is separated from day care (stalls, feed, water) then there is again no need for it. There could be a justification for an extra charge on top of day care for handwalking, but I would fight anything else.
When you pay a full lease, for whatever period of time, it is generally accepted that from a day to day perspective, it is your horse.[/QUOTE]
Is it a full lease when the owner is still paying for things like regular maintenance vet bills?
So the person who agreed to come to the show and work for a certain amount of money can still get paid by the person (the OP) who agreed to be there and pay them.
So, I just called USEF. They said that the other rider should not have accepted that prize money and that if she did, she was violating her amateur status because she was not the owner of the horse. They said the money should have gone toward the horse. So that means that either this girl’s amateur status is no longer the case (she’s a junior, not an adult, if that matters?) or owner/trainer collected prize money and did whatever with it. Would the show, which was under USEF had allowed the amateur rider to have applied those winnings to her own horse’s show fees…? Why would the show secretary allow the money to go to another source than the winning horse? If the show was on top of these things, it means that owner/trainer got the money–can she get it in cash without it going toward my horse? I’m basically trying to figure out how it came to be that the money didn’t go toward my horse’s bill.
[QUOTE=CrankyHorse12;8708787]
So, I just called USEF. They said that the other rider should not have accepted that prize money and that if she did, she was violating her amateur status because she was not the owner of the horse. They said the money should have gone toward the horse. So that means that either this girl’s amateur status is no longer the case (she’s a junior, not an adult, if that matters?) or owner/trainer collected prize money and did whatever with it. Would the show, which was under USEF had allowed the amateur rider to have applied those winnings to her own horse’s show fees…? Why would the show secretary allow the money to go to another source than the winning horse? If the show was on top of these things, it means that owner/trainer got the money–can she get it in cash without it going toward my horse? I’m basically trying to figure out how it came to be that the money didn’t go toward my horse’s bill.[/QUOTE]
By definition, juniors cannot be professionals. In that respect they can get paid any amount of money with no change in status.
It sounds to me like one of two things happened. The junior got the money credited toward THEIR bill, or the trainer got the money and either applied it to their bill or got a check.
In general though, most shows will FIRST credit any money won toward the show bill for that horse. This is protection for them, obviously, because they always take a risk that a check written to them will bounce. You can check the prize list to see if that applied to the particular show in question.
[QUOTE=trubandloki;8708781]
Is it a full lease when the owner is still paying for things like regular maintenance vet bills?
So the person who agreed to come to the show and work for a certain amount of money can still get paid by the person (the OP) who agreed to be there and pay them.[/QUOTE]
I think so–it was a condition of the lease–the horse had a few previous issues I was not willing to cover so we decided that we’d handle vet bills in this way. But I pay a lease fee, full board, and shoes.
I’m fine with daycare fees, so that part is okay, but I didn’t receive the full service I paid for with the grooming charges (getting the horse tacked up and to the ring).
Amongst the show-related fees, what really gets me are the “training” rides–there were a number of capable people who could have hacked him for free if he was stuck there and not showing.
The other rider should have paid the braiding on the days they showed and their classes. Grooming is non-negotiable. Someone has to pay it, you or the other person if you talked abut that beforehand. If the other person hadn’t shown the horse would still be in the stall, hacked by the trainer, fed/watered/tacked up/put away, etc. The grooms go to the show expecting to have X amount of horses to take care of.
I don’t know what day care is. I pay daily grooming directly to the guys and the fee to the trainer. It’s one fee to the trainer whether the horse is in a lesson, hacked by trainer/assistant or shown that day. The horse has to get out of the stall.
Are people out there paying some sort of the “day care” + grooming + fees for rides (hack or per class)??? I’m on the West Coast, but have gone to WEF, etc. and never encountered the day care thing.
What’s most disturbing to me was the fact that there was NO EFFORT to communicate to you in advance that any of this was happening and would have resulted in fees to you. I don’t like surprise bills. Maybe your barn divvies up charges oddly, and that’s your call if you want to play by those rules, but they shouldn’t have been sprung on you after the fact.
[QUOTE=fordtraktor;8706882]
Yes, but someone did use the braiding. The person who actually rode the horse. At the VERY least, the show grooming and braiding should have been billed to the rider! the prize money could have offset them. It’s crazy unfair to bill OP for it, IMO.[/QUOTE]
1 day of braiding may be legit- I’m not clear on the “warm-up” where OP got injured. If it was a warm-up for the class and the horse was braided, OP does owe braiding/grooming but not for subsequent days.
OP- you are not this trainer’s meal ticket. I understand how difficult this situation may be for you, but you need to either make it CRYSTAL CLEAR what you are willing to pay/ what is fair to you or find a new trainer.
[QUOTE=CrankyHorse12;8708805]
I think so–it was a condition of the lease–the horse had a few previous issues I was not willing to cover so we decided that we’d handle vet bills in this way. But I pay a lease fee, full board, and shoes.
I’m fine with daycare fees, so that part is okay, but I didn’t receive the full service I paid for with the grooming charges (getting the horse tacked up and to the ring).
Amongst the show-related fees, what really gets me are the “training” rides–there were a number of capable people who could have hacked him for free if he was stuck there and not showing.[/QUOTE]
Most trainers have a daily fee - called a day fee or a grooming fee or whatever - and you pay it when your horse is at the show, regardless of whether the horse shows or not. I personally wouldn’t push back too hard on this, HOWEVER, I would expect that the rider who SHOWED in your absence would cover those charges on the days they benefitted from the service (ie, had the horse tacked, taken to the ring etc.) Why on earth should YOU be expected to subsidize another client’s show experience? (My guess is: Trainer is courting this junior, or wanted to give them show experience they could not or did not wish to pay for, and used you as the checkbook to do it. Not cool.)
Again, I would have a sit down with the trainer, and explain that while you enjoy the horse / training /etc… you are not willing to subsidize another client’s showing expenses. I would further say that you were happy to lend the horse to the junior rider since the horse was already at the show and you were injured, but you expect that rider to cover the costs associated with their use of the horse.
I might or might not let the “training rides” go as that ship has sailed and I doubt you are going to get a refund there.
I would be very, very, VERY clear that if I did not want to go to a show, the horse (that I was paying a full lease to enjoy, even if that enjoyment means me sitting outside his stall admiring his pretty face) would be STAYING FREAKING HOME - *optional: Unless the junior rider wishes to sub-lease the horse for that show, and pay not only all the associated show expenses, but also a pro rated portion of the lease fee.
[QUOTE=CrankyHorse12;8708826]
MmmmmK, so the fact that this rider was a junior means that there was no status violation from USEF’s perspective.
What am I looking for in the prize list that would help me know how the show directs prize money…?[/QUOTE]
There is a policy on prize money statement in the beginning of most prize lists. If the show uses the USEF prize list template, it will be on p5, under rules and regulations, following the motorized vehicle statement.
I am a trainer, and lease my own horses to clients. If it were me, I would have come to you with the option of the Jr rider showing the horse, and taking on the bills from that point on. So you would have paid shipping there, any pre-arranged training rides, day care, etc, until you were injured, and agreed to let the other rider show him. At which point, she would have been responsible for classes, day care, etc. and I would have put the award $ towards that rider’s bill, as owner of the horse. But also wouldn’t have charged you for the services not rendered. To you, anyway.
A few people have seemed to have issue with the horse being ridden while you’re out of commission, which seems silly, if I have a sick/injured rider, I simply ask if they would like rider x to ride the horse, whether it is a hack, a lesson, whatever, depending on the situation. It benefits everyone to keep the horse in work. As for the next show, same basic idea, I have, on occasion, asked a client if someone else can ride the lease horse at a show the client has no intent of going to, and I will provide them a different horse to ride during that time period (same as I would if the horse came up lame or sick). I think it is a fair compromise, and none of my clients have ever appeared to feel slighted. Which I think the OP has a reason to be…
[QUOTE=CrankyHorse12;8708787]
Why would the show secretary allow the money to go to another source than the winning horse? .[/QUOTE]
This goes back to the entry. Pull up the prize list for the show. Go to the entry form. You will see at the bottom of the form you indicate owner, rider, trainer, and the person to whom the money goes. If your trainer did this form for you - which is very common - then she may have put herself down as the person the money goes to? That would be pretty much unheard of. See if you can get the entry form from the show office.
Yes, USEF should have mentioned that if the kid is a junior she can accept any kind of money. It’s highly confusing but in the jargon of the sport, there are professional, junior, and amateur fiders. Pros and amateurs are over 18. Basically, juniors can act as pros with impunity.
I totally agree with the sentiment, but how do you say this to the horse’s owner (who is also the trainer)? I haven’t been able to ride while this stupid ankle heals and owner is having other rider lesson on my horse in the meantime. He needs to get ridden, and I think she can say by whom so she has that right at shows. Where I needed to be firm was that if he stayed, I wasn’t going to pay for it. Right?[/QUOTE]
It depends on how the lease is written, of course, but the one time I leased a horse, the horse was functionally my horse during the time of the lease. I made the decisions on who rode the horse and when and where they did so. Under the terms of the lease, the owner had no right to make any decisions about the horse, who was riding it, and whether or not it went to shows or did anything else. Once an owner leases a horse (if it’s a full lease), the owner doesn’t get to make those kinds of decisions, unless the terms of the lease explicitly allow for it.
Now, obviously, a responsible owner who is on the premises is going to step in if you choose to do something wacky with the horse, even to the point of revoking the lease if they feel it’s necessary to ensure the horse’s well-being. But, part of the deal with a full lease is that the owner is giving up control over the details of the horse’s day-to-day life.
OP, based on the questions you have asked in this discussion, it sounds to me like your trainer has misled you about what is considered reasonable and customary in a lease and is taking advantage of your ignorance.
My advice is to first get out your lease contract and make sure that you understand exactly what your rights and responsibilities are under that contract.
If your trainer has written the lease contract such that she is free to do what she has been/is doing, then you need to decide whether or not you want to just shut up and put up with it. If you don’t, then terminate the lease.
If the current lease does not give the owner/trainer the right to do what she has done, then stand up to her and tell her that the terms of the lease don’t allow this and that no one can ride the horse without your express permission. Of course, you’re going to have to be prepared for an…unpleasant… reaction from the trainer so decide in advance how you’re going to handle it if it happens.
Personally, I’d terminate the lease and find a new place to ride. But you’re the only one who can decide what’s right for you.
Agree. I think the basic issue here is a lack of mutual consent. When I was boarding, it was not at all unusual for the BO/trainer to arrange for boarders or lesson students to ride someone else’s personal or leased horse if the owner/lessee was away on vacation/ill/injured. The difference is that those situations were mutual beneficial agreements among all involved parties.
Let’s just say that of a full show expense bill of $3,000,
OP ‘used’ $2,000 worth of entry, care and exercise BY CONTRACT when she agreed to ‘leave horse at the show’.
Other rider ‘used’ $1,000 worth of entries, braiding…
Prize money of $100 was applied to entries ‘bill’
OP was charged by trainer $2,900.
That is not good. Basically paid for 90% of other rider’s costs.
OP, face it, you do not have a full lease. You have an open checkbook.
Time to renegotiate and rewrite OR move on to the next.
Your trainer said the rider got the prize money, but can juniors even accept prize money without consent of an adult (I really don’t know but im sure someone on here can Check)?? My guess is the trainer got the money and either gave it to said junior, or kept it and told you junior got it because they figure you may not know the rules and won’t ask the junior, meanwhile trainer is keeping everything for herself. So sketchy!!
Is the junior lacking in funds for showing? I think you are totally just getting used to improve junior’s and trainer’s show record
Prize list says that prize money will be applied to exhibitor’s account with remaining balance to be mailed to owner. Also says that no prize money is given without SS# and tax ID.
A few people have seemed to have issue with the horse being ridden while you’re out of commission, which seems silly, if I have a sick/injured rider, I simply ask if they would like rider x to ride the horse, whether it is a hack, a lesson, whatever, depending on the situation. It benefits everyone to keep the horse in work. [/QUOTE]
I have no problem with the horse being ridden, but being charged for it is out of line. If the horse wasn’t showing, it didn’t need training rides (or more likely what was a lesson for the second rider and the trainer realized that wasn’t going to cut it). A horse can hang out for a few days without being ridden (although with small show stalls, handwalking would be in order.) Any ride on the horse should be approved by the person leasing the horse.
I can’t look up right now, but I bet there is a deifnition out there for exhibitor! However, unless the trainer modified the entry after you left the show and added the junior’s SS# on there (so wrong), there is no way that Junior’s SS# could have been on that entry when it was sent in because she was not planned to show the horse. If you never gave out your SS#, then the trainer would have put her own most likely since she is the owner of the horse. UUUggggg… I think trainer got the money. I would be surprised if she went to the trouble of going to horse show office and removing her own social security number and put the juniors on instead.
Also, were you planning to show in any classes that had money for placings (basically rated divisions), or any classics or derbies with more serious prize money? If so, that’s even worse bc the trainer never had your SS so if you were planning on riding in those classes you would potentially not have seen that money if there was any left over after entries.
[QUOTE=MtnDrmz;8708916]
I can’t look up right now, but I bet there is a deifnition out there for exhibitor! However, unless the trainer modified the entry after you left the show and added the junior’s SS# on there (so wrong), there is no way that Junior’s SS# could have been on that entry when it was sent in because she was not planned to show the horse. If you never gave out your SS#, then the trainer would have put her own most likely since she is the owner of the horse. UUUggggg… I think trainer got the money. I would be surprised if she went to the trouble of going to horse show office and removing her own social security number and put the juniors on instead.
Also, were you planning to show in any classes that had money for placings (basically rated divisions), or any classics or derbies with more serious prize money? If so, that’s even worse bc the trainer never had your SS so if you were planning on riding in those classes you would potentially not have seen that money if there was any left over after entries.[/QUOTE]
YES. I was going to do the exact same thing (jumper classics) that the other rider ended up doing on my horse. My SS# was never on anything.
By the language on the entry form, does this mean that if I had showed the horse, the prize money would have paid for my entries and then whatever remained would get mailed to owner? (So not applied to the overall bill for the horse)?
