Updated: What seems like a crappy situation. Gimme opinions.

[Lucassb]

[QUOTE=CrankyHorse12;8708886]
Prize list says that prize money will be applied to exhibitor’s account with remaining balance to be mailed to owner. Also says that no prize money is given without SS# and tax ID.

So is the other rider the “exhibitor”?[/QUOTE]

You need to see how the entries were done. I would be willing to bet that in this case, the money went to the owner (as it appeared on the entry) in this case, your trainer. To be honest it would not surprise me at ALL if you find out the junior rider WAS charged for all the services she received - ie, that there was double dipping going on.

I truly hope I am wrong, but I have been around this game a long time and it happens all the time.

[trubandloki]

[QUOTE=CrankyHorse12;8708926]

By the language on the entry form, does this mean that if I had showed the horse, the prize money would have paid for my entries and then whatever remained would get mailed to owner? (So not applied to the overall bill for the horse)?[/QUOTE]
I think your account (the word you used above) includes your horse’s fees, like the stall fee, the grounds fee, etc.

[IPEsq]

[QUOTE=RugBug;8708914]
I have no problem with the horse being ridden, but being charged for it is out of line. If the horse wasn’t showing, it didn’t need training rides (or more likely what was a lesson for the second rider and the trainer realized that wasn’t going to cut it). A horse can hang out for a few days without being ridden (although with small show stalls, handwalking would be in order.) Any ride on the horse should be approved by the person leasing the horse.[/QUOTE]

This would be a good situation where hard working talented junior should just be happy to get an extra hack. That trainer is charging OP for another student to ride the horse is crossing the line if OP did not agree to that arrangement up front.

[CrankyHorse12]

Huh. Cause that totally did not happen. Entries reflect winnings but not horse bill. Winnings were substantially more than the entry fees.

[IPEsq]

[QUOTE=trubandloki;8708933]
I think your account (the word you used above) includes your horse’s fees, like the stall fee, the grounds fee, etc.[/QUOTE]

Right. If I, as an owner/exhibitor won prize money, it gets applied to the show bill. Say you’ve pre-paid stalls and your show bill isn’t that high so your prize money exceeds the show account balance. Or you won a classic or something and had a particularly good week with prizes. As owner, show office writes me a check for that excess after horse’s account balance is 0.

[CrankyHorse12]

[QUOTE=IPEsq;8708951]
Right. If I, as an owner/exhibitor won prize money, it gets applied to the show bill. Say you’ve pre-paid stalls and your show bill isn’t that high so your prize money exceeds the show account balance. Or you won a classic or something and had a particularly good week with prizes. As owner, show office writes me a check for that excess after horse’s account balance is 0.[/QUOTE]

Gotcha. But than why didn’t the money go toward my horse’s bill? Not trying to be thick here, but I’m not understanding how the money was routed taking two things into consideration: my bill which does not reflect winnings (other than some money paying off the entry fees for those classes) and what the prize list says regarding winnings.

[IPEsq]

[QUOTE=CrankyHorse12;8708960]
Gotcha. But than why didn’t the money go toward my horse’s bill? Not trying to be thick here, but I’m not understanding how the money was routed taking two things into consideration: my bill which does not reflect winnings (other than some money paying off the entry fees for those classes) and what the prize list says regarding winnings.[/QUOTE]

That is one of the issues making people conclude trainer is taking advantage of OP. It should have gone to the horse’s bill.

[MtnDrmz]

[QUOTE=CrankyHorse12;8708926]
I

YES. I was going to do the exact same thing (jumper classics) that the other rider ended up doing on my horse. My SS# was never on anything.

By the language on the entry form, does this mean that if I had showed the horse, the prize money would have paid for my entries and then whatever remained would get mailed to owner? (So not applied to the overall bill for the horse)?[/QUOTE]

Yep! Based on the discription on the entries, any left over prize money will get mailed via check to who ever is listed as the owner and no money can be mailed without SS and Tax ID, which it sounds like you never provided to the trainer. Did you say the horse did an Undersaddle class as well? That seems ODD if the horse was entered in Jumer Classics and an undersaddle class that the trainer “coached” the rider for. Did you mean Hunter Classic? If they entered an undersaddle class after you had left, and that class was not planned for you, that really seems ridiculous that there was any question of you paying for that if you were actually doing the jumpers, not the hunters!

[trubandloki]

[QUOTE=CrankyHorse12;8708960]
Gotcha. But than why didn’t the money go toward my horse’s bill? Not trying to be thick here, but I’m not understanding how the money was routed taking two things into consideration: my bill which does not reflect winnings (other than some money paying off the entry fees for those classes) and what the prize list says regarding winnings.[/QUOTE]

Didn’t you say (sorry, I scanned back but could not find it) that the copy of the bill you have was printed before everything was paid?

If your trainer paid your bill with your checks then there was not anything to put the entry fees towards. They paid the junior rider’s bill with it and then whomever (the trainer, because they are the owner, most likely) got the rest.

[meupatdoes]

[QUOTE=RugBug;8708770]
Why would someone owe grooming and braiding fees for a horse that they are not showing?

It’s not supposed to go in a class, so braiding is no longer needed. The only reason the horse was braided was because the other rider showed the horse. Braiding fees, therefore, should be the other rider’s responsibility.

As for grooming? Not necessary either. There is no reason the horse needs to be groomed during the show if it’s not showing. Day care, yes. Grooming, no. If this trainer combines those into one fee, then fine. But if grooming is separated from day care (stalls, feed, water) then there is again no need for it. There could be a justification for an extra charge on top of day care for handwalking, but I would fight anything else.[/QUOTE]

First of all, read my post. I did not mention braiding at all, I wad just talking about grooming.

Secondly, maybe your program leaves a horse in its stall or handwalks it around the grounds at a horse show with last night’s poop stain still on its head, but nope no sir if my name is attached to that horse. Especially at a show!

[MtnDrmz]

[QUOTE=trubandloki;8708977]
Didn’t you say (sorry, I scanned back but could not find it) that the copy of the bill you have was printed before everything was paid?

If your trainer paid your bill with your checks then there was not anything to put the entry fees towards. They paid the junior rider’s bill with it and then whomever (the trainer, because they are the owner, most likely) got the rest.[/QUOTE]

Dear GOd I hope not :eek:

[trubandloki]

[QUOTE=MtnDrmz;8708983]
Dear GOd I hope not :eek:[/QUOTE]

Well that is what the OP said the trainer said happened. That the prize money paid the junior rider’s entries and the extra was given to the junior rider. If the prize list says the prize money pays the bill first there has to be a way for there to be no bill and the OP says that she paid her bill.

[CrankyHorse12]

[QUOTE=meupatdoes;8708982]
First of all, read my post. I did not mention braiding at all, I wad just talking about grooming.

Secondly, maybe your program leaves a horse in its stall or handwalks it around the grounds at a horse show with last night’s poop stain still on its head, but nope no sir if my name is attached to that horse. Especially at a show![/QUOTE]

I agree–horse needed to be ridden. But instead of charging me for rides, there were a number of people from the barn not showing who could and would have happily hacked him, some probably better than me!

[CrankyHorse12]

[QUOTE=trubandloki;8708993]
Well that is what the OP said the trainer said happened. That the prize money paid the junior rider’s entries and the extra was given to the junior rider. If the prize list says the prize money pays the bill first there has to be a way for there to be no bill and the OP says that she paid her bill.[/QUOTE]

My bill was paid at the end of the show when all was said and done–the secretary had a blank check, which got sent with the initial entry. So the prize money absolutely could have gone toward my horse’s bill. Barn-related checks for training, grooming, etc. were written out for me by the friend I sent over.

Plus, let’s say that I had paid the entire bill before the prize money got factored in. So what? If the prize money is meant to go to the horse, then trainer could have simply given it to me.

I’m so angry with this whole thing and the worst part is I love this horse and don’t want to stop riding him, but can’t see how I can continue to work with this owner/trainer.

[meupatdoes]

[QUOTE=CrankyHorse12;8708995]
I agree–horse needed to be ridden. But instead of charging me for rides, there were a number of people from the barn not showing who could and would have happily hacked him, some probably better than me![/QUOTE]

I was just talking about the grooming. Even if a horse is not showing, it would still need to be groomed imo. Others clearly have different programs but I do not have horses standing around in their stalls at a horse show with poop stains on their whites and several days of shavings in their tails (and I do my own work). And if I am bringing a client they are welcome to make it presentable themselves (DAILY!) but if they do not I will and services will be billed accordingly.

[Manni01]

[QUOTE=CrankyHorse12;8708997]
My bill was paid at the end of the show when all was said and done–the secretary had a blank check, which got sent with the initial entry. So the prize money absolutely could have gone toward my horse’s bill. Barn-related checks for training, grooming, etc. were written out for me by the friend I sent over.

Plus, let’s say that I had paid the entire bill before the prize money got factored in. So what? If the prize money is meant to go to the horse, then trainer could have simply given it to me.

I’m so angry with this whole thing and the worst part is I love this horse and don’t want to stop riding him, but can’t see how I can continue to work with this owner/trainer.[/QUOTE]

very sorry for this situation. But IMO you spent so much money on this horse, you can probably afford your own horse, and then you are in charge…

[CrankyHorse12]

[QUOTE=meupatdoes;8709013]
I was just talking about the grooming. Even if a horse is not showing, it would still need to be groomed imo. Others clearly have different programs but I do not have horses standing around in their stalls at a horse show with poop stains on their whites and several days of shavings in their tails (and I do my own work).[/QUOTE]

Oh, I agree! But I think that if owner/trainer wants horse to stay and show and someone else is going to ride it, I shouldn’t be the one to pay entire grooming fees. There are so many parts of this that feel and are wrong that that set of charges is more minor. Right now, after reading all of these (helpful!) posts, I’m the more fired up about the prize money.

[meupatdoes]

[QUOTE=CrankyHorse12;8709021]
Oh, I agree! But I think that if owner/trainer wants horse to stay and show and someone else is going to ride it, I shouldn’t be the one to pay entire grooming fees. There are so many parts of this that feel and are wrong that that set of charges is more minor. Right now, after reading all of these (helpful!) posts, I’m the more fired up about the prize money.[/QUOTE]

Right. In my initial post to you I initially said, imagine there is no other rider. Then you would still be responsible for the horse’s care throughout.

But if other people start taking over some of the riding they should also start taking over some of the expenses and doling out some of the prize money proportionally, and it should all be agreed upon in advance.

Another poster was trying to say that non showing horses don’t need to be groomed regardless and I was disagreeung with that statement.

[trubandloki]

Curious (OK, nosy), what reason did the trainer give for you leaving the horse at the show and not having it taken home?

[lmlacross]

[QUOTE=CrankyHorse12;8709021]
Oh, I agree! But I think that if owner/trainer wants horse to stay and show and someone else is going to ride it, I shouldn’t be the one to pay entire grooming fees. There are so many parts of this that feel and are wrong that that set of charges is more minor. Right now, after reading all of these (helpful!) posts, I’m the more fired up about the prize money.[/QUOTE]

So what happens next? Conversation with junior catch rider to tactfully determine what prize monies she might have received and how she may have been billed (or not)? Follow-up face-to-face with trainer?