[QUOTE=trubandloki;8709036]
Curious (OK, nosy), what reason did the trainer give for you leaving the horse at the show and not having it taken home?[/QUOTE]
He sort of spooked (maybe more like startled) in the warm-up ring as I had one foot in the stirrup (thus making me fall) and she wanted him to stay and show so that he didn’t end on that note. That’s what she told me, but it’s also in her best interest to have horse shown in general (especially since he’s capable of winning things).
[QUOTE=trubandloki;8709036]
Curious (OK, nosy), what reason did the trainer give for you leaving the horse at the show and not having it taken home?[/QUOTE]
He sort of spooked (maybe more like startled) in the warm-up ring as I had one foot in the stirrup (thus making me fall) and she wanted him to stay and show so that he didn’t end on that note. That’s what she told me, but it’s also in her best interest to have horse shown in general (especially since he’s capable of winning things).
OP, girl, let me just say I feel for ya. I’m not going to tell you anything the rest of the posters haven’t said already, but I’ve leased my fair share of horses and NEVER had anything like this happen. You can find an equally nice horse somewhere else where another trainer would be happy to have you. Your situation makes me want to break out the wine! Good luck to you and good riddance to that damn trainer of yours.
[QUOTE=CrankyHorse12;8709069]
He sort of spooked (maybe more like startled) in the warm-up ring as I had one foot in the stirrup (thus making me fall) and she wanted him to stay and show so that he didn’t end on that note. That’s what she told me, but it’s also in her best interest to have horse shown in general (especially since he’s capable of winning things).[/QUOTE]
If she specifically stated that she wanted him to keep showing and you agreed to leave him there that does change things a bit. However if you still wanted him to go home, and expressed that to her, she choose to have her horse stay, or if you noted that he could stay, but not show, that is totally different. Still sucky either way because all of this could have been avoided by the trainer’s communication ahead of time!
It all depends on how much you like the horse.
I’d be cranky too.
In your shoes, I call the trainer and tell her you need to have a sit down discussion, that you paid her bills up front because you didn’t want her to be out of pocket, but you have some questions that need to be resolved.
I would sit down with the bill and go through it item by item with the trainer and call out the things you did not agree to pay for and I would tell her point blank that the winnings were supposed to go to the horse and should have been applied to your bill. Tell her that you’ve already called the show about the winnings and are now very confused as to why the $$ were not applied to your account and ask her if she’d like you to contact the junior rider’s parents about the mistake or would she prefer to handle it directly. Probably the LAST thing in the world she wants is for you to contact the other rider :eek:. If she says you are responsible for braiding/expenses for the jr rider you can tell her that you expressly asked for the horse to be brought home but that SHE wanted the horse ridden and that you were not responsible for charges the pertained to the other rider’s show expenses.
Then I would address your lease. You have the perfect opening to say that this situation has raised issues about your lease agreement that you would like to nail down in writing.
I think you are completely justified in telling her you don’t want the junior rider taking the horse to a show where you are not riding. If it doesn’t bother you, then you need to discuss with her how she is going to financially compensate you for being without your horse for a week and address any potential consequences of the horse being injured at the show. I would get it IN WRITING that either the trainer/owner or the junior rider will pay any vet bills and that if the horse is injured and unrideable, that it voids your contract. The last thing you want is to be stuck in a year-long lease with a horse you can’t ride for something that didn’t happen on your watch. I would ask for the Junior rider’s parents to sign the contract (which specifies their financial obligations for the show and should the horse become injured) so that it is crystal clear to all parties involved.
I am a big believer in spelling things out before hand and in putting those thoughts in writing. It doesn’t need to be an aggressive situation (although I would be steaming!) but you do need to make sure that everyone is on the same page ahead of time.
Good luck! It sucks to have hurt your ankle and then to be hit with such high show charges on top if it.
There is no “leaving the other rider out of it” as that is a completely different situation. Anyone that sends their horse to a show for someone else to ride understands that there will be grooming and braiding fees. It doesn’t eve make sense to point that out.
[QUOTE=meupatdoes;8708982]
Secondly, maybe your program leaves a horse in its stall or handwalks it around the grounds at a horse show with last night’s poop stain still on its head, but nope no sir if my name is attached to that horse. Especially at a show![/QUOTE]
Well, in MY program, horses are horses and shit happens. Tails are not brushed unless freshly washed and shavings in them isn’t the end of the world. My stalls gets picked multiple times a day and I haven’t had an issue with finding a manure covered horse. I have admittedly had horses that like to keep themselves clean. My experiences may be different from someone else’s.
I also don’t play the “if my name is attached” game because there is always someone better than me and because I am confident in my horsemanship. A few stains on a white leg isn’t the end of my world if a horse isn’t going into the ring. If someone wants to judge me on that, fine.
For a horse staying at a show, but not showing, I would much prefer a few handwalks over one ride.
Trainer wanted the horse to stay and therefore the bills should have been the trainer’s or any other riders. I’m confused at how the horse staying was going to do anything to fix a silly spook during mounting. Fixing that is about repeated mounting until the horse learns that you DO.NOT move while being mounting. It is decidely NOT fixed with riding/showing.
If the horse needed to get in the ring it could have done a schooling trip UNBRAIDED and called it a day. It didn’t need to do a rated DIVISION. To learn a “lesson.” Ridiculous!
[QUOTE=vxf111;8709210]
If the horse needed to get in the ring it could have done a schooling trip UNBRAIDED and called it a day. It didn’t need to do a rated DIVISION. To learn a “lesson.” Ridiculous![/QUOTE]
^^^ THIS
Just out of curiosity… Is it at all possible that this horse for sale (even if not majorly advertised)? Seems to me O/T is dead set on getting this horse out showing. With or without you
[QUOTE=vxf111;8709210]
If the horse needed to get in the ring it could have done a schooling trip UNBRAIDED and called it a day. It didn’t need to do a rated DIVISION. To learn a “lesson.” Ridiculous![/QUOTE]
It didn’t need to do a rated WEEK either…one class immediately after the misbehavior woukd have sufficed. So much for that theory. Sounds like the big beneficiary was the other rider.
OP, you need to sit down and have a chat with trainer and go over your contract in detail. Including that other rider showing it while you still have and pay for the month to month on it.
Not going to pronounce judgement without more info but sounds like the other rider may be replacing you as leaser of this one. If they can afford it. If not, watch out for more ways to get you to foot the bill for trainers new teachers pet rider. Don’t do it.
Seen this one play out a hundred times…
I just took another look at the final version of the bill (got that, too, after the show) and it explicitly has a line item for “Prize money for Suzy Q”, with the amount listed minus the entry fee. So clearly this money got routed via the secretary to the other rider.
[QUOTE=Nootka;8709225]
^^^ THIS
Just out of curiosity… Is it at all possible that this horse for sale (even if not majorly advertised)? Seems to me O/T is dead set on getting this horse out showing. With or without you[/QUOTE]
Maybe? He’s not advertised anywhere, and has a few issues that would make him harder to sell than some. He’s one of a string that owner nearly always has leased out, so his doing well at shows increases the likelihood that people would want to lease him. I chose to lease instead of buy because of the issues (expensive vet things, not behavioral quirks) and didn’t want to be stuck with a horse that could be unsound (and he’s on the older side for a jumper).
[QUOTE=CrankyHorse12;8709263]
Maybe? He’s not advertised anywhere, and has a few issues that would make him harder to sell than some. He’s one of a string that owner nearly always has leased out, so his doing well at shows increases the likelihood that people would want to lease him. I chose to lease instead of buy because of the issues (expensive vet things, not behavioral quirks) and didn’t want to be stuck with a horse that could be unsound (and he’s on the older side for a jumper).[/QUOTE]
Wait…you paid for braiding for a jumper? That’s 100x sketchier.
[QUOTE=pinkpony321;8709279]
Wait…you paid for braiding for a jumper? That’s 100x sketchier.[/QUOTE]
Was a classic so they braided…
[QUOTE=CrankyHorse12;8709021]
Oh, I agree! But I think that if owner/trainer wants horse to stay and show and someone else is going to ride it, I shouldn’t be the one to pay entire grooming fees. There are so many parts of this that feel and are wrong that that set of charges is more minor. Right now, after reading all of these (helpful!) posts, I’m the more fired up about the prize money.[/QUOTE]
Indeed, if I were you I would be focused on getting back the prize money - well, and the braiding.
I really like the suggestion someone made about telling the trainer you are going to talk to the junior’s parents in order to straighten this out. Just be prepared that there are as many dysfunctional/crooked/opportunistic parents and juniors - sorry to say - as there are trainers out there.
Again, that being said, I have seen and heard many outrageous things in the HJ world. But I’ve never heard of someone taking an exhibitor’s show money. As you are spending quite a bit on this whole situation, it seems there have to be many, many quality trainers out there who would be happy to have you and who would treat you like a valued customer.
[QUOTE=CrankyHorse12;8709293]
Was a classic so they braided…[/QUOTE]
They had to do the classic. I mean, he needed to school. :no:
I’m really interested in how any subsequent conversations with this trainer go down. You’ve been offered up some pretty ridiculous justifications.
[QUOTE=CrankyHorse12;8709263]
Maybe? He’s not advertised anywhere, and has a few issues that would make him harder to sell than some. He’s one of a string that owner nearly always has leased out, so his doing well at shows increases the likelihood that people would want to lease him. I chose to lease instead of buy because of the issues (expensive vet things, not behavioral quirks) and didn’t want to be stuck with a horse that could be unsound (and he’s on the older side for a jumper).[/QUOTE]
But you will be stuck with the Vet bills, per your agreement, if he gets hurt right?
Either this trainer double dipped- billing you and JR for the same days/rides/classes… or you paid for the kid to ride.
Neither is ok.
A trainer who will play fast and loose with those things, will play fast and loose with Vet bills when the horse does get hurt.
I know you love him, but how much do you want her to take you for before it’s not worth it?
[QUOTE=NCRider;8706781]
Your trainer is a crook. This entire situation is beyond shady. She’s willing to steal thousands of dollars from you without thinking twice. People like that normally belong in jail. Find a new trainer. She has shown you she will cheat and steal from you to your face. What is she doing/willing to do when you’re not looking?
If her defense is that all of her peers are crooks too or that her other clients would let her steal from them this way, laugh in her face.
If you are not willing to move, then demand a reduction in the next lease fee to cover the entire amount she stole from you this month.[/QUOTE]
I want double-like this. The trainer is a crook!
[QUOTE=RugBug;8709204]
I did read your post and you absolutely DID mention braiding. I’ve bolded so it stands out for you:
There is no “leaving the other rider out of it” as that is a completely different situation. Anyone that sends their horse to a show for someone else to ride understands that there will be grooming and braiding fees. It doesn’t eve make sense to point that out.
Well, in MY program, horses are horses and shit happens. Tails are not brushed unless freshly washed and shavings in them isn’t the end of the world. My stalls gets picked multiple times a day and I haven’t had an issue with finding a manure covered horse. I have admittedly had horses that like to keep themselves clean. My experiences may be different from someone else’s.
I also don’t play the “if my name is attached” game because there is always someone better than me and because I am confident in my horsemanship. A few stains on a white leg isn’t the end of my world if a horse isn’t going into the ring. If someone wants to judge me on that, fine.
For a horse staying at a show, but not showing, I would much prefer a few handwalks over one ride.
Trainer wanted the horse to stay and therefore the bills should have been the trainer’s or any other riders. I’m confused at how the horse staying was going to do anything to fix a silly spook during mounting. Fixing that is about repeated mounting until the horse learns that you DO.NOT move while being mounting. It is decidely NOT fixed with riding/showing.[/QUOTE]
Omfg.
My post says:
If the horse stays at the show to continue showing in OPs absence with the trainer (who is who REQUESTED that the horse stay and continue showing as per OP) then she is responsible for the grooming and braiding.
It then states that, still in the absence of another rider coming along she would still be resp for grooming (whether or not the horse is being shown at all) because many programs groom the horses every day at horse shows as a matter of course.
That is the baseline response to the trainer’s request that the horse stay at the show, bc the additional rider was initially not mentioned by the trainer.
THEN, my post states that ONCE ANOTHER RIDER ENTERS THE PICTURE
So, my post essentially says here is how the situation would be w no additional rider, ie just leaving the horse at the show as initially requested by trainer, as compared to this is how the situation is changed by the additional rider which happened after the fact.
Do you honestly feel that this position is unreasonable or are you just arguing because anything I ever post you have to argue with?
[QUOTE=meupatdoes;8709335]
Omfg.
My post says:
If the horse stays at the show to continue showing in OPs absence with the trainer (who is who REQUESTED that the horse stay and continue showing as per OP) then she is responsible for the grooming and braiding.
It then states that, still in the absence of another rider coming along she would still be resp for grooming (whether or not the horse is being shown at all) because many programs groom the horses every day at horse shows as a matter of course.
That is the baseline response to the trainer’s request that the horse stay at the show, bc the additional rider was initially not mentioned by the trainer.
THEN, my post states that ONCE ANOTHER RIDER ENTERS THE PICTURE
So, my post essentially says here is how the situation would be w no additional rider, ie just leaving the horse at the show as initially requested by trainer, as compared to this is how the situation is changed by the additional rider which happened after the fact.
Do you honestly feel that this position is unreasonable or are you just arguing because anything I ever post you have to argue with?[/QUOTE]
I don’t argue with anything you ever post. You are the one that was insulting to begin with. So, you insult me and then get upset when I respond back? Nice. Honestly, it’s not worth my time to respond to you, whether I have a point or not. I know you find this entertaining and will just continue until I finally give up. So I will just give up now. Good day.
[QUOTE=CrankyHorse12;8708960]
Gotcha. But than why didn’t the money go toward my horse’s bill? Not trying to be thick here, but I’m not understanding how the money was routed taking two things into consideration: my bill which does not reflect winnings (other than some money paying off the entry fees for those classes) and what the prize list says regarding winnings.[/QUOTE]
If someone directed the show office to enter the information into the system that routed the winnings somewhere other than your bill. Someone the show office assumed had the authority to do so.
(Not saying this happened, but the horse’s owner (the trainer) would be assumed by the show office to have that authority.)
It is good that you are angry. You need to be to move on to next steps.
However, being angry is the time to put it in writing, objectively and neutrally. Avoid getting into a verbal p* contest with the trainer - this ain’t their first rodeo, for sure, and trainer is doubtless practiced at verbally overwhelming unhappy clients. You’ve already gotten a preview.
How about make a list of the billed items, with three columns beside the list for dollar amounts: Column 1) what you were billed; Column 2) what you should have been billed; Column 3) the difference. The totals will show Column 3 as a big credit due to you. Then put another line below the totals, showing how the winnings should have been applied. That will increase the credit amount owed to you. The point is to itemize and explain the amount that you feel you are owed as a refund for egregious over-charging.
Regardless if you ever collect those overcharges or not, staple your 3-column list to the trainer’s forehead on your last ever visit to trainer’s barn. 
:winkgrin:
Oh, and … before the stapling, let other people in the barn (especially the ones who are newer) “check your work”. That is, on the pretense of getting their input, show it to them and let them be aware of what the trainer did. Be prepared that some may be drinking the koolaid and say the charges are ok, they pay that kind of thing all the time. But it may be a needed warning for some. The trainer may not care what you think, but your fellow students/lessees/boarders may care a great deal.
Just a suggestion. For what it’s worth. :winkgrin:
My guess is that you are not the only one in trainer’s barn who could be making such a list for stapling to trainer’s forehead. :yes:
And this is cold, but you need to keep some emotional distance and perspective with any leased horse. There will be other horses, and they may be better and even easier to love. Trainers such as this use emotional attachments to the horse to further manipulate their clients. Horse is probably the loveliest, sweetest thing ever, and so is a great tool in the trainer’s arsenal. Don’t be surprised if, when you terminate this relationship, the trainer tries to pull the emotional heartstrings for the horse. Perhaps saying something will be less than ideal for the horse without his special person, you. Your answer: “That’s your decision. Bye.” Or just “Bye.” 
The horse will be fine, as the trainer wants it to stay available for leasing.
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