Updated: What seems like a crappy situation. Gimme opinions.

[SuzieQNutter]

[QUOTE=BigMama1;8709718]
So glad I’m not the only one baffled by this. It doesn’t take anything away from the fact that the OP was charged for services she didn’t need or want. That is wrong, plain and simple.

But is this set up normal in h/j land where you don’t even tack up or groom your own horses? Is this just at busy shows or is this how it works at he barn too? Clearly I don’t have much experience with how the other half rides LOL[/QUOTE]

LOL I am glad that I am not the only one baffled.

It takes a lot of work to get a horse to be able to go to a show and win. If riders are only stepping onto a tacked horse and going in to compete they are only doing 1/10th of what needs to happen. This is a safety concern.

In that case yes training rides are needed both at home and at the show, so the rider is not dumped in a corner and left while the horse gallops around wildly being unable to be caught.

As said other borders could have done this for free.

If you had already entered the classes you may not have got all your fees back if the horse had returned home.

If you had paid a braider to come and she was only there to do your horse, she would still be out for fuel and time to get there so she should have been paid for at least one day.

Both the braider and the groomer would have thought they were going to get paid for 5 days and may not have agreed to come for only one day, depending on how far they had to come and may be paying accommodation.

And yes the prize money should have gone towards the fees for entering the events.

The trainer should have waived all fees from the moment they said they wanted the horse to stay. If the trainer is the groomer and the braider they could easily waive those fees for the extra time they wanted the horse to stay.

The other rider did not come to the Show expecting to ride. It is a bit hard to ask them to pay if they didn’t win anything. If I had been the rider I would be mortified to find out I had been given prize money and you needed it to pay for the day. I would have gladly passed it to you. I would need to know you needed it first as I am not a mind reader.

[CrankyHorse12]

I

[QUOTE=red mares;8709767]
There is also the small issue that when/if the OP agreed to keep the horse there, she wasn’t all there upstairs. It’s very easy to get steamrolled into agreeing to something when you freaking hurt. BTDT, have the moon boot.

A decent person doesn’t take advantage of someone who is sick or hurt & not thinking quite straight. The OP’s trainer is clearly not a decent person.

The really sad thing is the trainer could have come of this situation smelling like a rose. She could have kept the horse at the show, had another rider pick up the ride & split the expenses. In that case, we’d be commenting on how the trainer went above & beyond to minimize the expenses for a rider who couldn’t compete, but would have still had significant show expenses. The trainer would not have lost money doing this.[/QUOTE]

Yeah the “decent person” issue baffles me too! I fell and could.not.get.up. I thought I had snapped my ankle and/or tore my ACL from the way I hit the ground (all kinds of things hurt). I actually think I was in physiological shock from the pain (or possibly wimpy) because I threw up by the side of the ring once they got me out of it. Two EMTs came and I was driven to the hospital by a friend–trainer knew I got hauled to the ER. What I haven’t even mentioned are my medical copays, which added insult to injuries (but those aren’t barn/trainer problems). My deductible is high so it added another 1K. But that’s digressing.

I will add that I liked this trainer before all this, too! But this was the first away show I’ve done with her because I’ve only had the horse a short period of time.

[CrankyHorse12]

Also, THANK YOU for all of the thoughtful feedback so far!! I just passed this thread over to my mom to read–she’s not a horse person but knows I’ve been sick over this issue since the show, and this helped her learn why.

[CrankyHorse12]

[QUOTE=SuzieQNutter;8709783]
LOL I am glad that I am not the only one baffled.

It takes a lot of work to get a horse to be able to go to a show and win. If riders are only stepping onto a tacked horse and going in to compete they are only doing 1/10th of what needs to happen. This is a safety concern.

In that case yes training rides are needed both at home and at the show, so the rider is not dumped in a corner and left while the horse gallops around wildly being unable to be caught.

As said other borders could have done this for free.

If you had already entered the classes you may not have got all your fees back if the horse had returned home.

If you had paid a braider to come and she was only there to do your horse, she would still be out for fuel and time to get there so she should have been paid for at least one day.

Both the braider and the groomer would have thought they were going to get paid for 5 days and may not have agreed to come for only one day, depending on how far they had to come and may be paying accommodation.

And yes the prize money should have gone towards the fees for entering the events.

The trainer should have waived all fees from the moment they said they wanted the horse to stay. If the trainer is the groomer and the braider they could easily waive those fees for the extra time they wanted the horse to stay.

The other rider did not come to the Show expecting to ride. It is a bit hard to ask them to pay if they didn’t win anything. If I had been the rider I would be mortified to find out I had been given prize money and you needed it to pay for the day. I would have gladly passed it to you. I would need to know you needed it first as I am not a mind reader.[/QUOTE]

If it matters we were at a big show, and the barn brought 15 horses, with like 10-12 riders. So the braiders and grooming staff would not have been left with nothing to do if one horse went home or didn’t need the services.

[Lord_Helpus]

OP, I have had 2 situations which resembled yours. Both times I had to leave a show early.

The first time (with trainer A) a van was coming to the show with the 2nd batch of horses and it took my horse home. All costs ended. Obviously I paid for stall. But my trainer went to the office at the end of the day and scratched all my remaining classes.

The second time (Trainer B) there was no van that could take my horse home, so he had to stay at the show. I still paid daycare, but part of that included taking the horse out to graze/walk around twice a day (this was always done for all horses in daycare, not just mine). If the trainer had thought he needed more exercise than that, he would have had him lunged or hacked. Day care means that all of your horse’s needs are met as long as the horse is at the show.

Of course there were no extra charges, such as braiding. That is a no brainer.

This trainer totally took advantage of you and the situation. You should not have had to think twice about your horse and the costs. Any trainer who has your best interests at heart would have acted like my trainers did. This trainer was out of line in so many circumstances that it boggles my mind.

It is easy to say “leave that trainer” and often hard to do — but in this case, I would be outta there as of yesterday. And I would send her an email telling her exactly why I had left.

I think you have been circumspect about posting only general facts here, using an alter and not posting your location or any identifying facts. Trainer cannot say that you have badmouthed her on the Internet. But, if she does, people will just consider the source and it will make her look bad, not you.

Feel free to copy and paste this post in your email to her.

[Lord_Helpus]

PS: One of these times was due to personal family problems. The other was due to a fall (at the last fence and we had been aiming for stardom until then ) and I was ambulanced to the hospital. I got a call from the trainer asking how I was, and at the end of the day, the trainer came by the hospital to see me in person.

Trainers are people, too. And how they react to a client’s misfortune says a lot about what kind of person they are in “real life”.

[Angela_Freda]

[QUOTE=SuzieQNutter;8709783]
The other rider did not come to the Show expecting to ride. It is a bit hard to ask them to pay if they didn’t win anything. If I had been the rider I would be mortified to find out I had been given prize money and you needed it to pay for the day. I would have gladly passed it to you. I would need to know you needed it first as I am not a mind reader.[/QUOTE]

But the other rider, who wasn’t going to be riding, miraculously had show clothes?
There’s a head scratcher.

And if I am at a show as a tag along who is not riding, and I get a chance to ride, you bet your bippy I understand that it’s not on someone else’s dime.

The minute the other rider took over showing the horse, the fees for that showing, all of it, should have transferred to the second rider as well.
You have to pay to play. Or at least some of us do.
Which is why I still wonder if Trainer didn’t double dip, charging OP and Second rider for all these fees…

[Linny]

[QUOTE=trubandloki;8706842]
The other way to look at this is that the barn agreed to provide a certain amount of work to a groom and a braider. The fees paid were more like non-refundable agreed upon fees.

If nothing else I think the OP needs to have a conversation with the trainer about what is going on and why they had to pay these fees.[/QUOTE]

The services should be billed to someone who used them.

As an aside, does anyone else think that far too many independent contractors are willing to bill for cancelled services? If you book me to braid for you and you scratch and your horse is never braided, I think a cancellation fee would be warranted, but not the full fee. When you choose to do free lance work, it’s a risk you take and should be figured into your rates.

[RugBug]

[QUOTE=Angela Freda;8709922]
But the other rider, who wasn’t going to be riding, miraculously had show clothes?
There’s a head scratcher.

And if I am at a show as a tag along who is not riding, and I get a chance to ride, you bet your bippy I understand that it’s not on someone else’s dime.

The minute the other rider took over showing the horse, the fees for that showing, all of it, should have transferred to the second rider as well.
You have to pay to play. Or at least some of us do.
Which is why I still wonder if Trainer didn’t double dip, charging OP and Second rider for all these fees…[/QUOTE]

Im pretty sure the OP said the other rider had a horse of her own at the show as well, but I’m not going to wade through 9 pages to confirm.

[CrankyHorse12]

[QUOTE=RugBug;8710079]
Im pretty sure the OP said the other rider had a horse of her own at the show as well, but I’m not going to wade through 9 pages to confirm.[/QUOTE]

Yes the other rider had her own horse at the show. But my horse is able to do more than her horse, so she was able to jump bigger on my horse.

[CrankyHorse12]

[QUOTE=Lord Helpus;8709883]
OP, I have had 2 situations which resembled yours. Both times I had to leave a show early.

The first time (with trainer A) a van was coming to the show with the 2nd batch of horses and it took my horse home. All costs ended. Obviously I paid for stall. But my trainer went to the office at the end of the day and scratched all my remaining classes.

The second time (Trainer B) there was no van that could take my horse home, so he had to stay at the show. I still paid daycare, but part of that included taking the horse out to graze/walk around twice a day (this was always done for all horses in daycare, not just mine). If the trainer had thought he needed more exercise than that, he would have had him lunged or hacked. Day care means that all of your horse’s needs are met as long as the horse is at the show.

Of course there were no extra charges, such as braiding. That is a no brainer.

This trainer totally took advantage of you and the situation. You should not have had to think twice about your horse and the costs. Any trainer who has your best interests at heart would have acted like my trainers did. This trainer was out of line in so many circumstances that it boggles my mind.

It is easy to say “leave that trainer” and often hard to do — but in this case, I would be outta there as of yesterday. And I would send her an email telling her exactly why I had left.

I think you have been circumspect about posting only general facts here, using an alter and not posting your location or any identifying facts. Trainer cannot say that you have badmouthed her on the Internet. But, if she does, people will just consider the source and it will make her look bad, not you.

Feel free to copy and paste this post in your email to her.[/QUOTE]

Thanks LH!

Out of curiousity did you own the horse in these scenarios? If I owned my horse, he would have been munching hay at home by the end of the day that I was injured.

Also, there are actually a few other details that I purposefully omitted that make this whole thing worse. I think they’re too identifying (I’ve already had people ask me who the trainer is and don’t want to name names at this point. I’m in Florida, but in a region saturated with trainers so I don’t mind disclosing that fact).

I ran to the barn early this morning to graze my horse and give him a snuggle. As an aside, this ankle deal means I’ll probably have to do a week or two without stirrups (so I make sure I’m not putting weight on it), which is going to suck. I’m going to try and ride on Monday. And then I need to make a decision about next month. I’ve sat owner/trainer down once before at the beginning of the lease to discuss vet bills and she seemed reasonable, but I’m really nervous about talking to her about these current issues. I saw her for all of 2 minutes this morning (she was giving a lesson, so I didn’t have her attention really) and asked her if we could meet on Monday–I think in person is better.

[Lord_Helpus]

OP, Yes I owned both the horses in these scenarios. But even if I hadn’t, the horse was at the show for me to show. If I could not show, then it still would have gone home if I wanted it to since I was the one paying day care.

In the second instance, where there was no ride available, I can envision the trainer calling me and asking if I would like Suzie to show the horse – to help out with the costs, since Susie would pay daycare for the days she rode.

In this case, I can see Suzie keeping the prize money since she was paying for everything. But if you were still paying for the horse to be there, then she was just standing in for you, and you should have gotten the prize money.

In neither case would my trainer have charged me for training rides…

[OverandOnward]

[QUOTE=CrankyHorse12;8710207]
…
Out of curiousity did you own the horse in these scenarios? If I owned my horse, he would have been munching hay at home by the end of the day that I was injured.
…[/QUOTE]

This is one of the most important clarifications that is needed in the understanding between you and the owner/trainer: Control. Who owns what decisions, and how those decisions are to be made.

100% lease = as if the horse is yours, in every case I’ve ever been aware of. (Except for certain extreme vet events, and anything of that nature written into the lease contract.) So, if your own horse would have gone home, this one should have gone home from the show. It isn’t the trainer’s call, it is YOUR call. The trainer gave up that decision when they gave you a 100% lease.

Maybe what you have is a 50% lease, or a 75% lease, and should be billed and scheduled accordingly.

If for any reason you can’t ride, it is your call to have the horse ridden or to give the horse some time off. (Or terminate the lease if it is to be an extended time period.) You decide who rides, when they ride, if they ride in a lesson, and how much you will pay someone to ride (if anything). That is YOUR decision. The owner/trainer can make suggestions. But this control is part of what they give up when a horse is on a 100% lease. (It’s why some owners aren’t good at leasing, they have a hard time releasing these decisions.)

Someone leasing a horse may not keep the horse as ready for showing as the owner would like. But that’s part of a 100% lease the owner has to deal with - or don’t lease.

Keep in mind that the trainer makes money off her horse every time another rider uses a horse in a lesson, or shows the horse. A show rider pays the trainer as coach and may also pay a horse fee. In a lesson, the trainer earns the lesson fee and may be earning a horse fee as well. If at the same time you are paying a 100% lease, then this trainer is double-dipping, big time.

If the trainer wants the horse back to use on a regular basis for their own purposes, the trainer should offer to you to (a) terminate the lease, or (b) come to another lease arrangement whereby you are compensated for the periods of use you agree to, or © have the lease discounted for the trainer’s use of the horse for another rider, effectively making it less than a 100% lease. For your side, you can (a) agree on amended lease terms, or you can (b) say this isn’t what you had in mind and terminate the lease on your side.

When I ride someone else’s horse in a lesson, I pay the horse owner $10 or $20 or whatever the ride fee is, against their cost of having that horse available for me to ride. In this case that is you who is carrying that cost of horse, because you are paying a lease in the place of the owner. So you need to be compensated/discounted for EVERY use of the horse by the trainer - or else amend the lease terms.

If the owner/trainer is still calling shots and dictating where horse will be and when; if owner/trainer is using the horse in lessons (paid for by someone, so that is additional income earned for trainer by this horse); if owner/trainer is determining the horse’s show schedule; if owner/trainer is picking riders … this is NOT a 100% lease. Not even a little bit.

You must claim your right to make the decisions. If the trainer is stepping all over those rights, then trainer’s behavior has already effectively terminated the lease, regardless. (That growing realization is what is giving you heartache right now, I’m sure.) Both of you need to come to a different understanding of your lease arrangement - or if you even have a lease arrangement, given what is going on.

Ask some specific questions about who is paying the trainer what for the use of your lease horse, questions with Yes/No answers, and don’t take a deflection for an answer: it is Yes or No. If trainer evades the questions and won’t give you an answer no matter how you ask, that’s your evidence that trainer is effectively cheating you.

I can’t imagine why anyone would want to deal with this trainer, but if you do, then you need a new written lease with all of the control terms spelled out. If you and the trainer can’t agree on terms, it’s time to terminate.

Then the whole next heartache … what goes on when you are not at the barn … is horse being used in lessons without your knowledge/permission? If you can’t trust what goes on without a spy or a remote camera in the barn, that’s also time to terminate the lease.

Personally I would not deal with a trainer who would even consider doing what this trainer is doing to you. Assuming everything you’ve posted here is an accurate depiction of what is going on.

When someone else doesn’t/won’t/can’t change, the actions and changes we control are our own. I wish you all the best, you seem like a nice person who really cares about horses.

[SuzieQNutter]

[QUOTE=Angela Freda;8709922]
But the other rider, who wasn’t going to be riding, miraculously had show clothes?
There’s a head scratcher.

And if I am at a show as a tag along who is not riding, and I get a chance to ride, you bet your bippy I understand that it’s not on someone else’s dime.

The minute the other rider took over showing the horse, the fees for that showing, all of it, should have transferred to the second rider as well.
You have to pay to play. Or at least some of us do.
Which is why I still wonder if Trainer didn’t double dip, charging OP and Second rider for all these fees…[/QUOTE]

I would only have been at the Show if I was riding another horse, so yes I would have been dressed.

You can take what I say with a grain of salt as I am on the other side of the world and our Shows do not run like this.

I took my horse to a Dressage Day when a friends horse vetted out. I paid everything.

When I was knocked out and taken to Hospital at our Ponyclub One Day Event. I was told that someone else got on and rode him to make sure he was okay and rode him home for me.

Actually I will have to ask Mum who did that for me as I don’t think I was told.

[OverandOnward]

[QUOTE=CrankyHorse12;8709425]
Basically. I emailed trainer today re: braiding and told her I wanted to be reimbursed by other rider. She said she would ask other rider to leave me a check. What do you suppose the odds of that happening are?

Otherwise, I paid for ALL of the costs with the exception of two days of training when other rider showed, and the braiding (IF I get reimbursed). And yes, other rider walked off with the prize money. None of it went toward horse’s (my) bill.[/QUOTE]

This is concerning for some reasons larger than braiding …

Who did you pay for braiding? Did you pay the braider directly? Was it part of your payment to the trainer for the total show bill?

If you paid the trainer, the trainer should reimburse you - in fact, the trainer should reimburse you in any case, because trainer is the one who authorized it, not you. The trainer can then get the money from the other rider, as they should have done in the first place.

The trainer’s pre-emptive action makes the cost the trainer’s responsibility, not yours. Getting the other rider to pay should be the trainer’s problem, not yours. You had no advance agreement or conversation with the other rider about any of this.

Tell the trainer that if you don’t have a CASH payment from the other rider by ___ (maybe end of day Monday, but make it a SHORT period), you will expect the trainer to pay you the following day. And stick to it.

More importantly, this may be revealing some of the trainer’s manipulation strategy. My guess: trainer changes the subject, refocuses the larger issue onto something smaller, then deflects the complaining party onto someone or something else. Suddenly, this big issue of thousands of dollars has come down to braiding and reimbursement by another rider. Trainer changes the goal; heck, even moves (or removes) the goalposts entirely.

I will guess that each time you have talked to the trainer, you come away feeling you spent most of the time talking about something other than the real, larger issue. And that if the trainer tried to show you she’s doing something for you, it will turn out to be something vague or insignificant that does nothing toward resolving the real problem.

And be prepared if it happens that part of the trainer’s technique may be to drag things out. Maybe trainer offers resolutions, but puts long dates on them. The longer things go on, the more energy is lost to complete the resolution. (And the more worry wearing you down.) If any money is changing hands to reimburse you, make sure you assert that it needs to happen by next Friday - at the latest.

Hopefully it won’t be like this! But you must be prepared to recognize such behavior and have a plan to deal with it, in case it occurs in your trainer meeting on Monday. If you need to take someone with you who is good at negotiating and is solidly on your side, consider doing that. You don’t need the trainer’s permission to include them. And also be prepared that when trainer finds out you can’t be used this way, trainer is no longer interested in working with you. Accept that as for the best and find a better situation. The horse will be ok! Good luck!

[2ndyrgal]

Would you like to lease my horse? You are getting screwed my dear, no flower, no kiss. Horse should have been taken home. And you would have then been responsible for stall fees.

[red_mares]

[QUOTE=CrankyHorse12;8709790]
I

Yeah the “decent person” issue baffles me too! I fell and could.not.get.up. I thought I had snapped my ankle and/or tore my ACL from the way I hit the ground (all kinds of things hurt). I actually think I was in physiological shock from the pain (or possibly wimpy) because I threw up by the side of the ring once they got me out of it. Two EMTs came and I was driven to the hospital by a friend–trainer knew I got hauled to the ER. What I haven’t even mentioned are my medical copays, which added insult to injuries (but those aren’t barn/trainer problems). My deductible is high so it added another 1K. But that’s digressing.

I will add that I liked this trainer before all this, too! But this was the first away show I’ve done with her because I’ve only had the horse a short period of time.[/QUOTE]

I didn’t think your trainer could look like less of a person, but I was wrong.

While it’s not strictly part of the problem, I would bring up the $$$ in copays in the discussion. Even if your trainer wasn’t in the ring, news like someone rolled/broke their ankle so bad they threw up, usually spreads like wild fire. That she would even think you would possibly show after that happening is complete & total B.S.

I would frame it as - Hey thanks, you know I really needed the padded show bills on top of the couple thousand I dropped at the ER. Thanks for being such a pal.

I don’t know of anyone who doesn’t have a $1K+ deductible, if your trainer says she didn’t know, that’s more BS.

Don’t push the ankle too hard, that can come back to bite you later.

[Trixie]

What happens at these shows? Does a tacked horse get led up to the mounting block. The rider mounts, warms up, goes in the ring, comes out, dismounts, hands the horse to someone and leaves???

Sometimes. The program isn’t really the point. Plus there are many folks that do know how to braid/groom/etc and just don’t have the down time (because these shows are $$$$ and sometimes, say, working to pay for it gets in the way). I always hire out braiding because I suck at it, personally, and the idea of practicing in my nonexistent spare time is just not happening. There are a lot of levels of care, depending on the barn - I’m the haul in myself and tack my own sort, but plenty of people hire grooms for this because they want to enjoy the show differently. Long as the horse is taken care of, no harm, no foul.

That said, this trainer sounds like a real piece of work. Charges should be up front and clear, especially when you’re not the one benefiting from them. I would be finding a different trainer, since you bankrolled someone else’s opportunity without giving permission.

[Soaponarope]

[QUOTE=Linny;8710010]
The services should be billed to someone who used them.

As an aside, does anyone else think that far too many independent contractors are willing to bill for cancelled services? If you book me to braid for you and you scratch and your horse is never braided, I think a cancellation fee would be warranted, but not the full fee. When you choose to do free lance work, it’s a risk you take and should be figured into your rates.[/QUOTE]

No way a cancellation fee for braiders is called for imo. Most braiders I know are overwhelmed with work anyway. One less horse is usually a relief. Some braiders have to have sub-contractors to get everyone done. Braiding is usually very helter skelter as well, with some horses getting just mane, some getting just fake tail put in, some getting both. I’ve never, ever heard a braider complain about not getting enough work at a big show; that’s just my experience as a client.

Given how things can change at the last minute at a show, some horses not showing or even coming always happen. It’s bad enough to have to pay for a stall in that case, but a braiding fee would be way over the top!

[hb]

I will confess that I haven’t read all 9 pages so possibly someone else has said this. If I were in this situation I would have a sit-down with the trainer and explain that these circumstances were not to my liking to the extent that she is coming close to losing my business.

It’s possible she thought having the other person show the horse was an advantage to you, to keep the horse going while you were off. It’s also possible she doubled-charged both of you for the show, taking advantage of the opportunity. A third possibility is she’s just an idiot with no sense of how to treat her clients.

Having someone else show the horse for a week while you’re paying a full-lease fee for the month is ridiculous.

If she’s not willing to work with you after you make your concerns clear to her, you need to vote with your feet and find another trainer, or accept that you’re going to bankroll this horse for other riders. Hopefully she’ll “get it” and work with you to charge fairly for what you’re getting.