I use the generic compounded powder from US Compounding (the only FDA approved compounding company that dispenses equine meds). I have an older horse that was confirmed with ulcers after chronic colic episodes, treated with 2 months gastro guard and then switched to compounded powder. I took him off everything a year later (he is retired!) and we went back to colic 45 days later. Put him back on lowest maintenance dose of compounded powder and we have not had a colic episode since.
[QUOTE=candico;8202144]
FWIW, all of the vets that I have been around actually prescribe compounded omeprazole, usually Precision Pharmacy, or just tell you to get the human kind from the drug store. [/QUOTE]
Two notes:
- if you dose the OTC amount the same as the omeprazole you would dose in GastroGard paste, its actually MORE expensive than walmart omeprazole.
and
- Unless your horse is swallowing those pills whole, I’m betting a good portion of the enteric coating on those pills is compromised, and likely not working as well as it should, if at all.
After 2 years of college anatomy and physiology I really do not like the idea of drugs to suppress a body’s normal functioning (acid production) Anytime a function is suppressed there is a rebound of overproduction. So I have treated our horses with L-glutamine only. Very happy with the results.
[QUOTE=kdreger;8202427]
After 2 years of college anatomy and physiology I really do not like the idea of drugs to suppress a body’s normal functioning (acid production) Anytime a function is suppressed there is a rebound of overproduction. So I have treated our horses with L-glutamine only. Very happy with the results.[/QUOTE]
And you have the scope images to share with us all?
ETA: I’m all for cheaper ways to treat ulcers. I just want cheaper ways that are PROVEN to work - just like the OP in this thread.
[QUOTE=SuckerForHorses;8202433]
And you have the scope images to share with us all?[/QUOTE]
:lol: :lol: :lol:
[QUOTE=SuckerForHorses;8202433]
And you have the scope images to share with us all?[/QUOTE]
:lol: Somewhat rhetorical, I know! 
[QUOTE=Simkie;8202391}
It’s all about balancing your personal comfort with the risk/reward. Me? When I’m faced with a horse fresh off the track, with 100% typical ulcer symptoms, I sure don’t bother scoping. Good lord, why put them through that? I use the paste that my vet feels works just as well as GastroGard (confirmed via her own scoping studies!) and I treat the horse. And when it gets better, we move on.
As for the human quad therapy? Zero evidence in horses that ulcers are caused Helicobacter. Not to mention the cost of doing something like that in a horse (you think GastroGard is expensive??), and the chance of impressive side effects.[/QUOTE]
Agree that it makes sense to treat a horse off-the-track who seems ulcer-y with a generic treatment or something of the like.
Well yes, there is zero evidence of the H. Pylori bacteria, which is the bacteria causing the human ulcers. But that’s not to say it’s not a different bacteria in the same genus For a long, long time no one believed it was bacteria causing human ulcers either until Pylori drank a bunch of bacteria and gave himself ulcers! :lol:
So I guess I’ll do my own study! I’ve done the Gastroguard with him several times (and rescoped to confirm successful treatment). I find it curious that the ulcers continue to recur when he is retired and theoretically living a low-stress life. Expensive is doing the gastroguard treatment over and over again! It’s why I’m considering a more comprehensive treatment this time - like we do in humans and trying to eliminate as many variables as I can. Honestly, I am thinking about skipping omeprazole altogether since it’s too hard to determine if any of it other than gastroguard is effective, and doing rantidine + abx+ bismuth subsalicylate + probiotics.
Just wayyyy to much anecdotal “data” out there re: ulcer treatment of horses. I am sincerely happy for anyone whose horse did better with whatever treatment you used!
BUT if you didn’t really see the ulcers, you don’t know that’s what you “fixed.”
I work for a chemical company - biology is not my thing but I am all about the data!
In further full disclosure, the reason I am so skeptical of the “my horse acts ulcer-y so I’m treating him” method is because I did the SAME EXACT THING with my other horse about a month ago.
For a number of reasons, I thought all signs pointed to ulcers. I did a week of gastroguard to see if I saw improvement. I thought I did. So I took BOTH horses to be scoped. The one I thought had them does not, the retired one does. WTH.
So I could have easily spent $$$ on a month of treatment for a horse that did not have ulcers whatsoever, as confirmed by gastroscopy, and spent $$ completely needlessly on a set of glorious silver skates.
I’m not knocking anyone who’s done it - because really it’s all in the interest of doing right for your horse, and I think that’s a good thing to be “guilty” of. But it really hit home for me how impractical that “method” can be 
[QUOTE=awaywego;8202454]
BUT if you didn’t really see the ulcers, you don’t know that’s what you “fixed.” ;)[/QUOTE]
And if you treat with multiple items (ranitidine, antibiotics, bismuth) you have no clue which of those things fixed the horse, or if it really took the combination
These days I just use ranitidine. I moved away from the vet with the scope and the preference for Precision Pharmacy paste, and haven’t really found a new vet yet. It’s also easy enough to treat BID or TID with the horses at home. And it’s cheap and available. I treated two of my horses after we moved.
Would I have prefered to scope and treat with omeprazole? Sure. But hauling a horse that doesn’t haul well two hours up to the university and then home doesn’t make any sense, along with the cost of it all.
FWIW, multiple recurrences of ulcers in a retired horse would have me considering pain as a factor.
[QUOTE=jlphilli;8201826]
As long as the omeprazole is buffered or has some sort of enteric coating, it will be equally effective. Abler’s products are like this.[/QUOTE]
Well, I disagree with this. The enteric coating (actually, the delivery system) has to be sufficient, and the dosage of omeprazole has to be what they say it is. We have no way of knowing either is the case, since Abler Products are not subject to FDA or others’ approval. We have to take their “word.”
So, did your vet have enough numbers with appropriate control groups to warrant a statistical analysis and conclusion? Otherwise, this is anecdotal evidence, which is better than none, but not enough to warrant stating that the paste is effective.
[QUOTE=Ambitious Kate;8201656]Not sure why a company producing omeprazole would publish results of a clinical trial. Omeprazole has had clinical trials and the results published. Omaprazole works. They are selling omeprazole. I don’t need to see another trial done.
No, I haven’ scoped, but I have treated with Abler, and my horse’s ulcer symptoms were cleared up, so as far as I am concerned it worked well.[/QUOTE]
Say whaaa? We all know that Omeprazole without sufficient delivery is useless in the treatment of ulcers on horses.
I am not convinced that the Abler Products are effective and we all know that smart people are fooled everyday by their “personal” experiences, aka the Placebo Effect. Given that the Abler Products are really not that cheap, I am sticking with the Merial Products because there is excellent research supporting its effectiveness. It is more expensive but heck, if I want ulcers to go away, I want to make sure they go away. I also scope the first time I suspect ulcers, and then treat and re-scope (insurance requires that). Once I know a horse has a history of ulcers, I skip scoping when the symptoms appear, and treat accordingly.
[QUOTE=Simkie;8202493]
And if you treat with multiple items (ranitidine, antibiotics, bismuth) you have no clue which of those things fixed the horse, or if it really took the combination
These days I just use ranitidine. I moved away from the vet with the scope and the preference for Precision Pharmacy paste, and haven’t really found a new vet yet. It’s also easy enough to treat BID or TID with the horses at home. And it’s cheap and available. I treated two of my horses after we moved.
Would I have prefered to scope and treat with omeprazole? Sure. But hauling a horse that doesn’t haul well two hours up to the university and then home doesn’t make any sense, along with the cost of it all.
FWIW, multiple recurrences of ulcers in a retired horse would have me considering pain as a factor.[/QUOTE]
Haha! Yep, that is a concern. Too many variables - not enough control! But I am fairly sure probiotics and pepto bismal alone will not cure the ulcers. And I know the rantidine alone will not keep them from coming back…which is where my antibiotic idea (something like they use for h. pylori on the premise that if it is a bacteria, it would likely have to be similar to survive in the same environment).
And then re-scope next spring because past experience tells me he gets ulcers over the winter (which makes sense because there isn’t the same grazing opportunities over the winter as the rest of the year). It’s only one horse, so my sample size doesn’t count for anything, but I’m up for trying it!
As far as pain - that is a good question. I have had this horse for 20 years and bought him from his breeder so I know his entire history. He’s always been quirky - and I’ve had him since before we all started talking ULCERS to explain everything So it’s a bit of a chicken-egg scenario with him: is he quirky because of the ulcers or does he have ulcers because he’s quirky?
There is a new-ish theory now with people who are studying the human biome that basically stress hormones affect the bacteria in our guts, so a small amount of stress in a person who already has the “bad” bacteria can set up conditions for the bad bacteria to go wild and create and ulcer (I think I have this right). Maybe that’s my horse too - maybe all he needs is to worry for 5 minutes about something stupid and it sets off a chain reaction that leads to ulcers.
Fortunately, I do not live far from multiple places for scoping and if I go on a gastroscopy clinic day it’s only $200 - which is a lot less than a course of gastroguard, so for me it’s worth checking rather than treating empirically.
[QUOTE=Winding Down;8202501]
Well, I disagree with this. The enteric coating (actually, the delivery system) has to be sufficient, and the dosage of omeprazole has to be what they say it is. We have no way of knowing either is the case, since Abler Products are not subject to FDA or others’ approval. We have to take their “word.”
So, did your vet have enough numbers with appropriate control groups to warrant a statistical analysis and conclusion? Otherwise, this is anecdotal evidence, which is better than none, but not enough to warrant stating that the paste is effective.
Say whaaa? We all know that Omeprazole without sufficient delivery is useless in the treatment of ulcers on horses.
I am not convinced that the Abler Products are effective and we all know that smart people are fooled everyday by their “personal” experiences, aka the Placebo Effect. Given that the Abler Products are really not that cheap, I am sticking with the Merial Products because there is excellent research supporting its effectiveness. It is more expensive but heck, if I want ulcers to go away, I want to make sure they go away. I also scope the first time I suspect ulcers, and then treat and re-scope (insurance requires that). Once I know a horse has a history of ulcers, I skip scoping when the symptoms appear, and treat accordingly.[/QUOTE]
These are some of my concerns as well - basically they are too many unknown factors with the Abler products.
For argument’s sake, if we say Abler’s abguard product is 50% as effective as Gastroguard b/c the enteric coating is not as effective for delivery. The cost is still less than half of gastroguard, so that would make it a good deal. But we do not know if it’s only 10% as effective at delivery - which would make it a bad deal.
With regard to the microbiome–really disturbing it is a risk with antibiotics, too. Just something to consider.
This is about people, but interesting: http://www.apa.org/monitor/2012/09/gut-feeling.aspx
It’s interesting to consider how a horse’s behavior might be impacted by his microbiome.
I would be terribly hesitant to try antibiotics on a lark. We know it can really upset the gut, but what don’t we know about how it upsets the whole horse?
[QUOTE=awaywego;8202556]
For argument’s sake, if we say Abler’s abguard product is 50% as effective as Gastroguard b/c the enteric coating is not as effective for delivery. The cost is still less than half of gastroguard, so that would make it a good deal. But we do not know if it’s only 10% as effective at delivery - which would make it a bad deal.[/QUOTE]
We do have a poster here who verified that the enteric Abler coating was effective.
Enteric coatings in general increase bioavailability by ~25%.
The FDA conveniently confirmed for us that the Alber granules contain the labeled amount of omeprazole, and that the paste is super-potent.
[QUOTE=Simkie;8202558]
With regard to the microbiome–really disturbing it is a risk with antibiotics, too. Just something to consider.
This is about people, but interesting: http://www.apa.org/monitor/2012/09/gut-feeling.aspx
It’s interesting to consider how a horse’s behavior might be impacted by his microbiome.
I would be terribly hesitant to try antibiotics on a lark. We know it can really upset the gut, but what don’t we know about how it upsets the whole horse?[/QUOTE]
The whole microbiome thing is really fascinating. I have a good friend who is currently studying this area for a PhD so we’ve discussed it at lenghth.
There is another product out right now - OMZ - which I previously posted asking if anyone has any experience with - that I believe is treating ulcers with probiotics. They have a TINY UC-Davis study to back the product (sample size of TWO!) The problem with proving anything probiotic-related is effective is because everyone’s biome is different, so results are not easily replicated. But it does potentially imply a relationship between bacteria and ulcers.
So MAYBE a more effective treatment would be bridging the rantidine with the OMZ product. Or vice versa. I’m not hugely concerned with the risks of the abx - especially if followed up with a course of probiotics.
[QUOTE=Simkie;8202567]
We do have a poster here who verified that the enteric Abler coating was effective.
Enteric coatings in general increase bioavailability by ~25%.
The FDA conveniently confirmed for us that the Alber granules contain the labeled amount of omeprazole, and that the paste is super-potent.[/QUOTE]
I vaguely remember reading about this - that the paste had more omeprazole than necessary. And then the question of “is it too much?”
Who knew that to own a horse you’d want a PhD in microbiology and expertise in FDA rulings?
[QUOTE=awaywego;8202586]
I’m not hugely concerned with the risks of the abx - especially if followed up with a course of probiotics.[/QUOTE]
This, I think, is short sighted We have no idea what the microbiome of the horse is supposed to look like. Even if you follow up with a course of probiotics, what probiotic bacteria are you going to feed? How do you know those are the ones he needs? How do you even know that the brand you’ve chosen is alive and will get to where they need to go effectively?
You’re demanding all of this research regarding ulcer meds, but you’re willing to use a probiotic without any data?
[QUOTE=Winding Down;8202501]
Well, I disagree with this. The enteric coating (actually, the delivery system) has to be sufficient, and the dosage of omeprazole has to be what they say it is. We have no way of knowing either is the case, since Abler Products are not subject to FDA or others’ approval. We have to take their “word.” …[/QUOTE]
Hey101, a member on here, actually did do a lab controlled study on the Abler granules, and the enteric coating did withstand the study of time simulating the equine stomach.
That being said, that was only 1 sample of the granules, so we have no way of knowing if the coating is the same for each batch.
In addition, her study didn’t prove the ingredient inside was actually omeprazole.
But her small study did make people feel better about the risk/reward of using the granules with an enteric coating.
Abler has some pre/post studies if you ask them, including videos.
There was a poster here a while back that scoped, horse did have ulcers, and she treated with the abguard paste, then scoped and the ulcers were gone (its been a few years I dont’ remember the name.
I treated my mare with the GG 1/2 dose this spring…didn’t see any improvement, I ordered the abguard stable pack, and she was fine after 30 days. She’s off meds completely now, although I have her on the Legends Gastrotech and her ulcer signs have not returned.
