USE Webinar on changing the AA rule

My question is, do we really even need ammy/pro separations anymore? I don’t think so, personally.

Once the Olympics started allowing professional athletes (NHL, etc.) to compete on their national teams, the whole “amateur athlete” ideal went away.

Horse sports in particular have become so expensive that (very broadly speaking) amateur rules that once protected “backyard” kids riding whatever horses they could get their hands on from having to compete against the country-club pros, have become an outdated concept that really only works for a tiny percentage of the showing population. I would venture to say that a healthy majority of participants across all horse disciplines have plenty of money to ensure that there is a fairly level playing field based on accessibility of good training and quality horses.

So I guess I’m saying that I’d vote to throw out this outdated artificial separation and let all riders to compete equally. You can still divide classes by experience level of horses, and even riders (never won a blue ribbon at XX height, etc.). And to be clear, I’m basically still one of those “backyard” kids on my non-fancy horses that might be expected to still embrace the ammy option. I just don’t think it’s needed any longer.

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That applies to pretty much everything they said on the webinar. Lol.

I’ll give them credit for trying to tackle the whole thing, but it is a big task, no question.

I personally am a poor (monetarily and quality wise) rider who prefers to be able to not ride against my trainer (or other such trainers). So I like the ammy division(s), even if I do not even win there.

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That was never the purpose of the amateur rule, to the best of my knowledge. The amateur rule was originally created so that the ladies who lunch did not have to show against their trainers. Which is why it was worded to exclude people who made their living from horses, rather than any requirements involving skill level.

I’m sure someone will correct me if I’m wrong.

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The webinar is posted on the USEF site. I don’t know if you have to be a member to watch it.

It’s an hour long, with the first half covering the proposed changes, and the second half involving a question and answer period.

https://www.usef.org/network/coverage/2020webinar/1_tpolzx6b

That is how I understood it too, @MHM.

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Lol, me, too! I certainly prefer not to ride against a lot of people, but if I want to show I accept that there will always be plenty of entrants who are more skilled, or have fancier horses than me.

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Yes, the Amateur rule was intended to separate the “payers” from the “paid”.

Back in the 1960s, the Amateurs largely fell into two categories:

  • College students who had aged out of the Juniors, but whose horse habit was still being supported by their parents
  • Married women who did not work outside the home, whose horse habit was supported by their husbands (aka “ladies who lunch”)
  • with an occasional wealthy business man who supported his own horse habit.

There were practically no “working stiffs” in the Amateur classes then.

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I accept that too.

I still think it is best to have divisions for ammies and separate divisions for anyone and everyone.

There are plenty of ammy riders that make me look silly. No need to ad the pros too.

And I am in no way saying “it is not fair” that people have nicer horses than I do. Or that people have more time to ride with better coaches than I do. Or that some people are actually athletic and I am totally not.
I still like the system where the ammy riders have an option to ride with other ammy riders (or they can ride against the pros if they want).

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My feeling is that any new amateur rule (across all the USEF disciplines, not just dressage) will have to be just as convoluted and full of exceptions as the current rule, which everyone here seems to agree isn’t working anymore. It’s too prone to misunderstandings and misinterpretation, there are too many loopholes, and there are too many “sham-ateurs” looking to take advantage of the system for the sake of some $1.00 ribbons.

So if a new rule is just as prone to issues as the old, and helps fewer and fewer true amateurs, wouldn’t it be easier to just get rid of it? Yes, some people would be adversely affected by this decision, but plenty are adversely affected by the current one.

If two choices are equally bad, but one is waaaay easier to administer on a national level, then it seems like a reasonable suggestion to do away with the divisions.

To me this is like saying “no one goes the speed limit in this 30 zone so we might as well just get of it since having the 30 zone is not benefitting anyone”.

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FYi, this is a bad analogy. Most of time if the posted speed limit is evaluated, the new posted speed limit is based on the 85th percentile speed. So if everyone goes over the speed limit, it gets raised.

I have followed the complications and inconsistencies of the Amateur Rule (GR1306) for many years. I watched the webinar, and have just sent a response to the Amateur Task Force. I figured I would post it here too.

Starting with the most broad perspective, I question the need for separating “Amateurs” from “non-Amateurs” in the first place.

When I first joined USEF (back in the early 1960s), the Amateurs (at least in the Hunter/Jumper disciplines) fell into two categories-

  • College students who had “aged out” of the juniors, but whose “horse habit” was still being supported by their parents
  • Married women who did not work outside the home, and whose “horse habit” was supported by their husbands.

We still have the first category, but the second category has almost disappeared. Apart from the college students, most of the Amateurs (in all disciplines) have full time jobs outside the horse industry, and many struggle to afford the ever increasing cost of competing.

Furthermore, for many Amateurs, the focus has changed from separating the “payers” from the “paid” to separating the “good enough to make a living at it” to “not good enough to make a living at it” (not withstanding the first line of GR1306 which says it is not related to “skills or accomplishments”). This “good enough” context was reflected in the comments of the panelists who talked about whether or not certain activities “made you a better rider”. If Amateur status is not about “skills and accomplishments”, then it shouldn’t matter if something “makes you a better rider”.

Rather than modifying the Amateur rules, it would make more sense to ger rid of them entirely, and for each discipline to create performance categories that ARE overtly based on “skills and accomplishments”.

For instance, Eventing already has “Horse” and “Rider” subdivisions, based on the highest level the horse/rider has completed in the last 5 years.

The same approach (for “Rider”) could be applied to Dressage, which is also based on “Levels”.

A similar approach (perhaps based on the highest height the rider has competed at in the last 5 years) could be applied to Hunters and Jumpers.

It is not immediately clear to me how to apply this concept to the Western disciplines, and to the breed disciplines, but I am sure each of them could figure out their own structure. If nothing else, the definitions of “Maiden”, “Novice”, “Limit” which already exist in the General Rules could be expanded and/or customized for each discipline.

Then we would no longer have to worry about the GR1306 “peg” needing to fit a whole bunch of very different “holes”.

The Olympics (which introduced the whole concept of restricting competition to “Amateurs”) got rid of the Amateur distinction decades ago.

As a competitor, I really don’t care if I am competing against the “payers” or the “paid”. When I was working full time, there was a definite advantage to competing in (Jumper) classes held on the weekend instead of midweek. That, to me, was the only advantage of being an “Amateur”. But if the Jumper classes were divided based on experience/accomplishments, presumably the “lower” experience classes would still be on the weekend.

Instead of trying to hold together the obsolete “Amateur” definition with band aids, it would make more sense to get rid of it entirely, and replace it with discipline specific class distinctions that ARE based on “skills and accomplishments”.

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Not in a heavily populated village type setting, hence me picking 30mph as my choice of speeds.

But if you would like, I will pick another analogy. I think that one gets my point across though, my point simply being why I think just because the rule is less than perfect is no reason to toss it all out.

Edit to add - I am not actually showing in anything at this point in my life so if the ammy situation changes it will not truly do anything to how I do things.

Thanks, @Janet! This was what I was trying to say, but you said it much more clearly and compellingly.

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Would a better analogy be that if some of my premeds are cheating I should relax the rules and allow cheating? Keeping in mind that these are the people who are competing to take care of you in your old age. It would have saved me a lot of time and aggravation over the years.

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I agree. Using a limit / point / horse vs rider division is much more likely to get closer to equity. Take my example. Late thirties have been riding my whole life; dressage for the last 15 years. I scrapped through to get a silver on my wonderful, but not very talented PSG horse and am lucky enough to have been able to import a very nice young horse. When I take him out at training, I wouldn’t be able to enter a limit rider class because I am theoretically an FEI rider. How fast I move out of the limit horse category will correlate to my horse’s quality and training. The limit system could be based on score.

It would also solve some of the things that just come up as a part of life. During the strict lock downs I schooled some horses because my trainer was physically unable to ride and we were only allowed to have 1 person at the barn at a time, and there were a few horses who just needed to be tuned up. Did I get better from riding lower level horses? Maybe. But probably not. I did get fitter though :joy:

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Oh no :flushed::flushed::flushed:. Stop even considering this…. What about the poor poor AAs who can afford anything they like… they have to compete against the people who make money with horses……. No way this is not going to happen!!!

Thank you!!! I agree with you!!!

Not necessarily. For example, in the case of the family sponsored amateur (mom buys barn and horses for her daughter to ride full time), typically they have a professional coaching them. Their coach can be their sponsor. This allows the full-time amateur to take a few beginner horses in training; their coach can sign off as their superviser and you essentially have what used to be defined as a “pro” in the amateur category–a full time sponsored rider who has a few clients. What I’m not sure about in this scenerio is whether the amateur trainer can ride the horses. Maybe they use their own retired fleet of schoolmasters as lesson horses?

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