USE Webinar on changing the AA rule

[conniemary]

The problem with rules around income is that it requires information a sporting body wouldn’t/shouldn’t have access to. It’s none of their business how much money I make. I’m surprised anyone would endorse a rule that would effectively require all competitors to reveal their income and income sources, unless they wanted to compete open.

Rules around performance can be made based on data that they (theoretically) have access to: competition results. It still won’t be perfect, because there are people who train at home and rarely compete, then come out and win championships. But the idea is to factor in the level people have competed previously and scores obtained to classify them as essentially beginner, intermediate or established at a given level.

From British Dressage:

Each level of competition e.g. Preliminary or Novice is divided in to three sections Gold, Silver and Bronze. The section into which a member may enter is determined by the horses and rider’s experience and points won at each level of competition. Each level will run as one class with all riders being judged by the same judge. At the end of the class, for results and qualification purposes, the class will be divided in to the different sections.

• Bronze sections are for less experienced horses and riders who have just started competing at a given level so that they can compete against those with a similar ability.
• Silver sections are designed for those combinations that have achieved more ability at a level and have demonstrated that they are no longer a beginner at that level.
• Gold sections are for riders who have gained experience at higher levels and are riding a horse with less experience, or for combinations who have demonstrated that they are competent at a level. There is no obligation for a combination to move out of the Gold section at any given level should they not wish to compete at the levels above.

[lorilu]

How does BD determine the levels? Scores (no mre seeking out the Santa judges… now we’ll look for the harder ones?) Shows? What if someone shows lots of schooling shows and goes to many clinics - but virtually no shows. Are they Bronze? And, say you are showing 3rd and 4th. Does that mean you’d be in “Gold”, for third, eve, if this is just your first year there?
Messy messy mess.

[Mersidoats]

Can a Brit weigh in on this and tell us how this works? Averages? Medians?

[WannabeDQ]

Bloggers and social media influencers have a totally different skill set than a professional rider. They are experts in photography, marketing, and social networking. It actually takes time away from horses and forces you to spend more time working in front of a screen than becoming a better rider. At least those teaching lessons are actively being paid to work with horses. No clue why they would force ammys who are being paid to work with technology to declare themselves professional riders.

[conniemary]

I did look up the rules and it’s complicated with a series of yes/no questions about what level you’ve competed, percentages, whether you’ve qualified for / competed at certain championships, etc. Other countries can (and do) make up a system that worked for them, based on how their riders typically score and progress through the system.

My point is that these systems exist (NZ is also looking at adopting a simplified version of the British system, because people were complaining about the NZ Amateur classification). Instead of talking hypotheticals you can at what other places are already doing, borrow what works, and improve upon whatever needs improvement.

[Mersidoats]

Considering how USDF already tracks our scores in a database (as does USEF for points and placings) this could be a viable option.

I still think dressage should go via the danish system and award ribbons based on scores. For example: blue for 69+, red for 63-68.99, yellow for 59-62.99, etc. that way everyone gets a ribbon and it encourages people to improve and compete only against themselves.

[yaya]

@WannabeDQ

Bloggers and social media influencers have a totally different skill set than a professional rider. They are experts in photography, marketing, and social networking. It actually takes time away from horses and forces you to spend more time working in front of a screen than becoming a better rider. At least those teaching lessons are actively being paid to work with horses. No clue why they would force ammys who are being paid to work with technology to declare themselves professional riders.

Probably because they consider it to be similar to this (GR1306.4d, part of the listing of what makes one a professional) “Accepts remuneration AND uses his name, photograph or other form of personal association as a horseperson in connection with any advertisement or product/service for sale, including but not limited to apparel, equipment or property.”

No skillset required to pose for a photo in an ad, but if you get something in return (payment, discount, or free product) for being considered a horseman, it makes you a professional. So I can see where they want to include bloggers/influencers in there, as they often get discounts or free stuff for mentioning products in their blogs in their capacity as a horseperson.

[js]

How do the Europeans do it? I know Germany has testing to move up and the UK goes by points (I think) but do they consider income made via horses as professional at any level?

[Christa_P]

In eventing the levels are (or were) split open, horse, rider, junior. Open is open, anyone qualifies. A horse division is the HORSE has not completed an event above that level in X years. A rider division is that the RIDER hasn’t completed an event above the level (or more than 1 or 2 times) in X years. You could also have a limit division where neither horse or rider has completed an event at a higher level.

For dressage the completed requirement for the horse and rider divisions could be earned XX% at a higher level within the last 2 or 3 years.

No restrictions on income or where the money comes from. The only qualifications are the levels you have earned your scores.

[EmilyM]

Am I the only amateur who is tired of them tweaking our rules but none for going pro? How about some basic standards and maybe some ethics training for pros.

[trubandloki]

@EmilyM

Am I the only amateur who is tired of them tweaking our rules but none for going pro? How about some basic standards and maybe some ethics training for pros.

But that would require a level between ammy and pro. Because the way things are now you are either an ammy…or you are not an ammy.
If you have a skill set requirement for being a pro, where would the people who do not qualify as an ammy, but do not have the skills to be a pro end up?

[eightpondfarm]

maybe novice, intermediate, advanced, pro…maybe even one more? There need not be only two categories of competitors.

[EmilyM]

Maybe we should have to qualify to be pros and not Ammy. So basically you don’t pass the pro requirements you are an amateur. If
You make money giving lessons and can’t pass the pro test don’t horse show. Or maybe that’s a developing pro category with limits.

Maybe that would elevate overall horse welfare and safety for horses and riders.

[BigMama1]

@Mersidoats

I still think dressage should go via the danish system and award ribbons based on scores. For example: blue for 69+, red for 63-68.99, yellow for 59-62.99, etc. that way everyone gets a ribbon and it encourages people to improve and compete only against themselves.

100% this. Placings are pretty much meaningless in dressage; scores are the only measure which matter.

[trubandloki]

@EmilyM

Maybe we should have to qualify to be pros and not Ammy. So basically you don’t pass the pro requirements you are an amateur. If
You make money giving lessons and can’t pass the pro test don’t horse show. Or maybe that’s a developing pro category with limits.

Maybe that would elevate overall horse welfare and safety for horses and riders.

Isn’t that defeating the whole purpose of making a testing procedure for professionals? I thought the point behind that idea was to have qualified people teaching. Not to make the ammy divisions bigger and the pro divisions harder to get into.

[eightpondfarm]

i would like to see competition categories to have the competitors compete on a more equal footing with eachother. Now, i gather that as one progresses up through the levels the air up there becomes rather rarified…less and less participants as you make your way up. So, indeed a Novice/Newbie category would, consequently, have more people competing.

[Manni01]

Sorry but this discussion is hilarious…… it’s all about money as usual… There are countries who have working solutions, maybe look into their systems….

[eightpondfarm]

yes, of course it is all about money. To make any change in the competition categories the governing org must first be satisfied that it is to their financial advantage to do so.

[Manni01]

Just an example although I am aware of the fact that nobody is interested in it….

Still during Corona restrictions I entered a third level test at a show. it was open for LK 2, 3 and 4.
For LK 2 I believe you need placings in FEI tests like PSG and up, but I am not sure , simply guessing,
LK 3 you get with 3rd level placings and if you are a Pferdewirtschaftsmeister, which is the highest level of Professional….
LK 4 I have because I passed a certification with 2nd level Dressage test and 1.10 m jumping course and some theory.
And of course it was open for Professionals and AAs….

because there were a lot of entries they split the class…. we also have ranking points in Germany, I have no idea how to get them, but I assume it’s about placings…
One class was 0 to 350 ranking points, the other one was 350 and more…
Of course I was in the 0 to 350 group. when I got there I was pleasantly surprised… Some older ladies and they all looked like they would be around my level…. I have no idea if they were pros and I didn’t really care because was focused on my performance….

So IMO it doesn’t matter whether you are a pro or an AA…. I would eliminate this altogether……

[BigMama1]

@Manni01

I have no idea if they were pros and I didn’t really care because was focused on my performance….

This can be the case in any class, at any horse show, should you choose to approach it that way. Unless placings and ribbons are what motivates you, who cares how good or rich or experienced any other riders in your class are? That won’t change how well or how badly you ride your own test in any way.