USEF Code of Ethics - are behavior expectations of our Licensed Officials enforced?

[SonnysMom]

[QUOTE=vxf111;8714448]
Of course I don’t know for sure and I am making an assumption here (and it depends on the concentration) but I’ve bought powdered bute from a LOT of different compounders/sources. A 1 gram scoop is not what I would call a “big scoop.” When I think of a “big scoop” associated with joint supplements, that’s a scoop that I would guestimate holds 2-3 grams or MORE of powder (Ex: Cosequin is a 3 gram sized scoop). That’s a significant amount of bute, if I am right. An “almost sure to test” amount as well as a “can mask lameness” and “cruel to work a horse who needs this much NSAID amount.” I am making an assumption here about the scoop size/concentration but I am picturing more than a gram of bute being given daily disguised as a joint supplement.[/QUOTE]

I am used to the smaller scoops for bute. But I horsesat at one farm and the scoop was bigger than I was used to. It was 3xs the size of the little scoop in the ones we had at the farm. I am guessing it had a lot of sugar and flavoring added. It was orange smelling. I was concerned I was overdosing him since the scoop was so much bigger.

Prior to that I was mostly familiar with vanilla or peppermint flavor and I am pretty sure it was compounded by Wedgewood.

[monalisa]

I’d look into it to see if you can file a formal complaint like you can do at a horse show. I don’t know if you can or not. If you happen to be at a show when this person judges you can also submit an evaluation form. They are available at every rated show (or should be). There are plenty of horse people out there I would never ever buy a horse from (a trust issue) and many of them are judges. Unfortunately it is an insular world and they protect each other.

[monalisa]

Another note - all licensed officials must undergo background checks every 2-3 years (on the licensed officials’ dime I might add). I don’t know what turns up in these or if anything is done if something does turn up, but if this person has a fraud conviction pending it might make a difference. But again, maybe not.

[vxf111]

[QUOTE=SonnysMom;8715302]
I am used to the smaller scoops for bute. But I horsesat at one farm and the scoop was bigger than I was used to. It was 3xs the size of the little scoop in the ones we had at the farm. I am guessing it had a lot of sugar and flavoring added. It was orange smelling. I was concerned I was overdosing him since the scoop was so much bigger.

Prior to that I was mostly familiar with vanilla or peppermint flavor and I am pretty sure it was compounded by Wedgewood.[/QUOTE]

I’m making some assumptions here, but I have never seen a bute 1gram scoop as big as a Cosequin scoop.

[fordtraktor]

[QUOTE=vxf111;8715372]
I’m making some assumptions here, but I have never seen a bute 1gram scoop as big as a Cosequin scoop.[/QUOTE]

My vet used to compound using the tiny scoops but he is doing something new and orange flavored with a much bigger scoop. The horses seem to like the taste more. It’s the size of a normal supplement now, the 1g scoop – about 3 times what the old dose used to look like. It comes in a huge jar instead of a little one.

it is a lot bigger than a Cosequin scoop actually.

So it is definitely true that some vets are using this new/different orange flavored stuff.

[vxf111]

[QUOTE=fordtraktor;8715382]
My vet used to compound using the tiny scoops but he is doing something new and orange flavored with a much bigger scoop. The horses seem to like the taste more. It’s the size of a normal supplement now, the 1g scoop – about 3 times what the old dose used to look like. It comes in a huge jar instead of a little one.

it is a lot bigger than a Cosequin scoop actually.

So it is definitely true that some vets are using this new/different orange flavored stuff.[/QUOTE]

I feel like the OP would have noticed/mentioned if the Cosequin was mysteriously orange flavored. She seems relatively savvy, based on her posts.

[vxf111]

Not that I am sure this hair splitting matters when my point was simply that OP doesn’t even know HOW much bute the horse was really getting and moreover, stacked with Previcox, the horse may have been getting SIGNIFICANT NSAIDs. I am not sure about how going back and forth about orange flavored bute really changes any of that (especially where I noted at the OUTSET that I was making some assumptions that may/may not be correct).

[IPEsq]

I don’t think it really matters how much Bute horse was getting and whether the scoop is 1g or 2g or something else, considering that the drug was undisclosed to the person now responsible for full care of the horse and described instead to be a joint supplement.

[fordtraktor]

The only reason I mentioned the orange flavored bute is that you said you’d never seen a gram of bute come in a larger scoop and I was explaining that there are two types of compounded bute powder, one that comes in a small scoop and another that comes in a bigger one. For all I know it comes in many flavors and my vet just gives me the orange kind.

But you were the one saying you’d never seen that kind of bute and questioned how it could be mistaken for Cosequin which has a larger dose size or whether it could be several grams, you brought it up!!! I was just trying to be helpful and explain that, not argue with you.

It’s not like I think the behavior is OK or I am trying to excuse it because it’s only 1 gram. No matter how much bute it is, it’s not acceptable.

[vxf111]

[QUOTE=fordtraktor;8715874]
The only reason I mentioned the orange flavored bute is that you said you’d never seen a gram of bute come in a larger scoop and I was explaining that there are two types of compounded bute powder, one that comes in a small scoop and another that comes in a bigger one. For all I know it comes in many flavors and my vet just gives me the orange kind.

But you were the one saying you’d never seen that kind of bute and questioned how it could be mistaken for Cosequin which has a larger dose size or whether it could be several grams, you brought it up!!! I was just trying to be helpful and explain that, not argue with you.

It’s not like I think the behavior is OK or I am trying to excuse it because it’s only 1 gram. No matter how much bute it is, it’s not acceptable.[/QUOTE]

I actually didn’t say I have NEVER SEEN a gram of bute come in a larger scoop.

The OP said she was giving the horse a “BIG SCOOP” of the supplement. I said your typical-concentration-one-gram-scoop is not what I would describe as a “BIG SCOOP.” Which means it’s possible that if the bute was not powdered in a way that makes it VERY DILUTE, the OP may have been giving more than a gram per day.

I have seen this mystical orange flavored bute (note that the OP never mentioned orange flavor/smell)…

https://www.valleyvet.com/ct_detail.html?pgguid=045bf230-a0b9-44d1-b7d1-12d21161b273

I’d actually used it, now that I think about it. And IIRC the scoop is still notably smaller than a Cosequin/joint supplement type scoop.

Yes, it has a larger scoop than your typical bute. Which is neither here not there in terms of the point I was making-- which was simply that due to the judge/owner’s deceit-- OP doesn’t even KNOW how much bute she was giving and it may have actually been a significant amount.

[Linny]

[QUOTE=hoopoe;8713321]
I dont know how much you have to stand on here.

You didnt take the horse to a show and get caught, therefore no show rule was violated.

[B]the judges behavior as $&!tty as it was, did not in any way show the USEF in bad light as she was acting for herself, not as a federation official or representative.

[/B]Compare this to the reprimand for Torano where he ranked on a show management and class that was ongoing ( second day)

Other judges have been called out for bad behavior but it usually occurs on show grounds or during the running span of a show dates ( while out in the evening)

It basically comes down to a person being dishonest

If judges were held accountable for their behavior outside the duties at shows we would probably have a lot less judges to choose from.[/QUOTE]

IMO, as a judge, you should be held to a higher standard. You are in essence, representing the USEF in everything you do in the equestrian world. You cheat your local tack shop? You engage in a shady sale? You provide Bute and claim it’s a joint supplement when delivering a lease horse? It all reflects on the governing body that licensed you.

Funny, the same trainer who is offended by a client using a Stanley trunk or a flashy saddle pad at a horse show because it “reflects on their program” don’t seem bothered by what appears to be a very shady lease by a USEF official. (Hoopoe, I am NOT referring to you here)

[Jumphigh83]

I’d be interested in knowing how horse show manager’s spouses and “executive directors” can exhibit in their own shows in hunter divisions? Aren’t there ANY ethics anymore?

[Ridergirl99]

I would be curious to know who you spoke to at USEF?

[Halfhalting]

The licensed officials office have their own email address that goes to a group. A committee reviews all complaints and provides feedback. Thus there were multiple contacts as part of this process, including USEF Legal and USEF Licensed Officials.

[2bayboys]

Just curious, once the “Cosequin” supplied by the owner/judge ran out, presumably you would have purchased real Cosequin to replace it. At which point the horse would have gone lame, since it was no longer on the Bute he needed to appear sound.

Would you have then been liable for the expense of the lameness treatment or bound by the lease agreement to keep the horse at your expense for the duration of the lease term? That speaks of a whole 'nother level of deviousness.

[Doctor_sOrders]

Oooooohhhhh 2bayboys, that is what I was thinking! “cosequin” runs out, OP orders more, horse goes lame. OP runs diagnostics, rads, MRIs, bone scan, options are endless! Owner/judge gets the benefit of OP fixing the horse while it’s out on lease.

How clever and devious! Not only would they be getting money from the lease fee, they’d be getting a sound horse back! OP tell us more!

[Janet]

[QUOTE=Jumphigh83;8718004]
I’d be interested in knowing how horse show manager’s spouses and “executive directors” can exhibit in their own shows in hunter divisions? [/QUOTE]
Because the rules specifically allow it.

GR1304.2 last sentence: “The hiring of a judge to officiate at Licensed Competitions shall not constitute employment for purposes of this rule.”

GR1304.26.f “The hiring of a judge to officiate does not constitute employment under this rule.”

[Ninaberry]

Writing my master’s thesis on this actually, will let you know if I find anything of significance related!

[Halfhalting]

That’s interesting! I also noticed the email announcement about the Office of Compliance that was recently hired for USEF. I am hopeful that positive changes will come from it at horse shows and in general.

On a side note, my email inbox is open for folks that wanted to private message me. Sorry, I didn’t realize it was full until I was just told.

[M_O_Connor]

This may be a case of your needing to take action yourself, as the wronged party.

I would think that if you have accurately described your experience, you would have grounds for a lawsuit, particularly if you had a written agreement outlining the parameters of your lease, including your intended use of the animal in question.

If this lease was formally filed with USEF, and any activities took place in association with a USEF show, I would think that you might have some amount of recourse to pursue through USEF/USHJA. Absent these conditions, I would guess that there might not be anything the Federation or the USHJA discipline group could do on an official level. But if you are able to take legal action, a successful lawsuit would create a paper trail that would be difficult to suppress, and could certainly affect any future decisions that the LOC might make regarding the official in question.

I definitely as a USEF Licensed Official feel a responsibility to act in a very clearly above board and ethical manner, but I regard the high ethical standards I adhere to as a qualification for licensed status, rather than a requirement that I have to follow because I am licensed.