USEF High Performance Dressage ... and the Performance Standard Rule

The USEF has this lovely system already in place to support / train / track / monitor “High Performance” dresssage riders and horses. It is an “opt-in” system, where the rider has to declare the intent to play in that sandbox. Riders who do opt in get access to various training opportunities that are held for them. Right now, only GP and InterMed riders are allowed in.

Question: why can’t this (already existing) system be extended to include Third, Fourth, and PSG?

If the goal of this entire Performance Standard discussion is to improve the quality of the US international-level riders, it would seem that building and maintaining a pipeline of lower level riders as they move up the levels would be ‘a good thing’. And this would be riders who really want to play at that level – not the rest of us who just want to ride our horses in the occassional show at a level we feel suits us and our horses.

No need for an additional level of paperwork to track scores for the majority of riders who don’t opt in; an existing system already up and running so no start-up costs/issues to the extension; an earlier opportunity to identify and train up-and-coming riders interested in international level competition … this is workable.

star

good thoughts there

For that to work, that would have to be the intent of the lower level qualification; I don’t think it is. I mean I don’t think the motivation behind the current 3rd/4th level qualification proposal is to develop elite riders.

And, if that were to work, it would have to be true that the elite riders develop by showing at training thru 4th level, and I don’t think they do. They may show some at that level but I don’t think that’s what makes them elite riders; it’s other things.

[QUOTE=slc2;3074545]
For that to work, that would have to be the intent of the lower level qualification; I don’t think it is. I mean I don’t think the motivation behind the current 3rd/4th level qualification proposal is to develop elite riders.

And, if that were to work, it would have to be true that the elite riders develop by showing at training thru 4th level, and I don’t think they do. They may show some at that level but I don’t think that’s what makes them elite riders; it’s other things.[/QUOTE]

Elite riders have to bring on young horses…and currently, the only “pipeline” for developing riders is the Jr/Yr…why not expand the HP Division to include thoese lower level riders…it would replicate somewhat the system of LeGoff/DeNemethy when people went to “selection trials.” The intent to form 2 tracks would provide the pipeline for international-level riders while leaving the rest of us alone…and since it is “opt-in” there would not be a need to do score-keeping.

If the goal of this entire Performance Standard discussion is to improve the quality of the US international-level riders, it would seem that building and maintaining a pipeline of lower level riders as they move up the levels would be ‘a good thing’. And this would be riders who really want to play at that level – not the rest of us who just want to ride our horses in the occassional show at a level we feel suits us and our horses.

The more I think about this issue (and obviously, I have burned up a lot of little grey cells on this …), the more I like the idea of two tracks: an Open track for anyone who wants to show and a High Performance track for those who want to compete, possibly at the international levels. The EF could impose whatever qualifying requirements its little heart wanted on the High Performance track.

star

[QUOTE=ShotenStar;3074314]
If the goal of this entire Performance Standard discussion is to improve the quality of the US international-level riders…[/QUOTE]

A thought occured to me this morning, since the first proposal was truly an Artifical Standard* if there ever was one.

What if this qualifying standard was going to be introduced at third level solely because not many riders there and not much objection. The following year: standards introduced at second. The year after that: standards introduced at first.

Pretty soon there’s a whole lot more tests in the hopper and more revenue. Let’s not forget the USEF runs it programs by the rider accuing the most points over an entire season. USDF is the only one (unlike hunters, jumpers) that averages a median score from a very limited amount of tests. The DCs original proposal would address this “loss” of revenue…

This whole proposal never made sense as it was presented. WANT TO BOOST RIDERS’ QUALITY? Address or reconfigure the riders marks on the tests.

Another point: the USDF method of median score is more fair to award the best rider. Hunters and Jumpers need to spend more money by attending more shows to win. They can place lower but simply show more times and win over the better rider. So I ask, can USEF understand the concept of Artifical Standard?

*ARTIFICAL STANDARD: who would want to overtax a non-dressage bred horse and open the possibility of too harsh training methods? The welfare statement is clear in working well within the horses’ natural limits (I’m willing to bet that’s why the original 50% was determined). Who doesn’t know a talented horse can put in 65% with an abusive/poor rider, ridden decently the same horse can average a 73%.

[QUOTE=ShotenStar;3074314]
If the goal of this entire Performance Standard discussion is to improve the quality of the US international-level riders…[/QUOTE]

A thought occured to me this morning, since the first proposal was truly an Artifical Standard* if there ever was one.

What if this qualifying standard was going to be introduced at third level solely because not many riders there and not much objection. The following year: standards introduced at second. The year after that: standards introduced at first.

Pretty soon there’s a whole lot more tests in the hopper and more revenue. Let’s not forget the USEF runs it programs by the rider accuing the most points over an entire season. USDF is the only one (unlike hunters, jumpers) that averages a median score from a very limited amount of tests. The DCs original proposal would address this “loss” of revenue…

This whole proposal never made sense as it was presented. WANT TO BOOST RIDERS’ QUALITY? Address or reconfigure the riders marks on the tests.

Another point: the USDF method of median score is more fair to award the best rider. Hunters and Jumpers need to spend more money by attending more shows to win. They can place lower but simply show more times and win over the better rider. So I ask, can USEF understand the concept of Artifical Standard?

*ARTIFICAL STANDARD: who would want to overtax a non-dressage bred horse and open the possibility of too harsh training methods? The welfare statement is clear in working well within the horses’ natural limits (I’m willing to bet that’s why the original 50% was determined). Who doesn’t know a talented horse can put in 65% with an abusive/poor rider, ridden decently the same horse can average a 73%.

[QUOTE=ShotenStar;3074314]
If the goal of this entire Performance Standard discussion is to improve the quality of the US international-level riders…[/QUOTE]

A thought occured to me this morning, since the first proposal was truly an Artifical Standard* if there ever was one.

What if this qualifying standard was going to be introduced at third level solely because not many riders there and not much objection. The following year: standards introduced at second because it was “so wildly successful.” The year after that: standards introduced at first.

Pretty soon there’s a whole lot more tests in the hopper and more revenue. Let’s not forget the USEF runs it’s award programs by the rider accuing the most points over an entire season. USDF is the only one (unlike hunters, jumpers) that averages a median score from a very limited amount of tests. The DCs original proposal would address this “loss” of revenue…

This whole proposal never made sense as it was presented. WANT TO BOOST RIDERS’ QUALITY? Address or reconfigure the riders’ marks on the tests.

*ARTIFICAL STANDARD: who would want to overtax a non-dressage bred horse and encourage the possibility of too harsh training methods? The welfare statement is clear in working well within the horses’ natural limits (I’m willing to bet that’s why the original 50% was determined). Who doesn’t understand a talented horse can put in 65% even with an abusive/poor rider on board. Ridden decently the same talented horse should, for example, average 73%.

from sm

What if this qualifying standard was going to be introduced at third level solely because not many riders there and not much objection. The following year: standards introduced at second because it was “so wildly successful.” The year after that: standards introduced at first

Yep, I’ve been assuming all along that that’s the direction this will take. Put it in at a high enough level that people will be complacent because it won’t affect them (whoops, they sure misread that!) and then push it down the levels until you have to qualify to ride First Level at a recognized show.
A boon to the schooling shows. And I guess the hunter shows…

Actually a rep who posted here already said that that was the case, and that the qualifying scores would continue to increase, AND that it would eventually affect all levels. :slight_smile:

The goal is that dressage just isn’t going to be a place where people can show at any level, and the requirements for moving up will be quite restrictive. The goal IS to get the lower scoring, AND ESPECIALLY, the average scoring, riders, OUT. I feel that has far more to do with this than with ‘abusive riding’.

I went thru the USDF yearbook edition last night and crossed off all the award winners that would not get awards if qualification was put into effect, simply based on the score their award was based on.

The list was astoundingly long. The most heavily affected were the vintage and all breed awards, where many awards come from sub-62% scores, but frankly, I was quite stunned at the results. It would completely change all the award programs.

The other thing I noticed was that ALREADY, at ALL levels, the people winning those awards (non vintage, non amateur, non all breed), are nearly all professionals. Nearly all were not the owners, and even many of the amateurs I felt were not your typical ‘grass roots’ amateurs at all.

[B][I]The other thing I noticed was that a great many riders that I know, I mean those who I know have been showing 3rd 4th and PSG-I1 for many many years(some for 12-15-20 years), got their bronze medals in 2007. Most of them haven’t shown training-1st-2nd in years except to briefly school youngsters they are bringing along…some of them aren’t shown at all til they’re ready for 3rd level (alot of people who already showed those levels and can’t afford to show all the lower AND upper levels, simply don’t show til they’re ready to come out at 3rd).

And surely, egon, I don’t know them all, but I know some of them, they are very nice riders but their scores are 60-62% range, really great is 63-64%, not always so 65-70-ish, and to be frank the list of bronze medals rewarded in 2007, I don’t think it has EVER been that long. And I don’t think that’s just from ‘growth in our sport’.

So it is already having an effect. [/I][/B]

My concern is that people here are acting very complacent, as if they HAVE stopped this, as if they CAN stop this thing, by protesting and questioning the grounds on which it is being done.

When it appears to be very obvious that a great many people are going out and getting ready for it, as if it is a done deal. And I think for better or worse, it IS a done deal. I think the committee members are just THRILLED about it and I think they think that everyone who is NOT thrilled with it are those who are disgruntled because it will prevent them from showing at 3rd and 4th level!

It would take many years for a new organization to get off the ground. I think it’s valid to discuss ‘what would you really do?’ Not show? Lease or borrow a horse to get the bronze on, work really hard ithe next two years to get your bronze and show your own horse…any other options?

I know a great many people aren’t aiming for 3rd or 4th level any time in the future and are very incensed about qualification, though in its present form it would not affect them…what are the rest of the people doing, those who are close to that and would be affected by the present proposed qualification?

Other than ‘not show’ nearly NONE of those options is going to make any professionals selling lessons and training…unhappy. All are money makers for them. They aren’t, by and large, going to fight qualification.

In some ways, the 1st, 2nd level students are often a trainer’s most solid bread and butter. They often get many more lessons and schooling at shows, they very often are working very intensely with an eye toward moving up, they VERY often see a need to buy a new horse (commissions) and in a way, they are the trainer’s ‘dream students’, much more so than the student with more modest goals - they areally, honestly are the big money makers, and since that is often where the most past training holes surface, they can need a LOT of expensive help, seek out clinics, etc. If large numbers of them see NO avenue othr than schooling shows as even a prayer of moving up, they may really ‘kick back’ on their expectations…and their spending…

Do you think to protect their customer base, that judges will simply start giving scores that are 5-7% higher, so the ‘close’ riders qualify and continue up the levels? We have already seen ‘score inflation’ once, will it simply compensate for qualification requirements?

[QUOTE=slc2;3076987]
Actually a rep who posted here already said that that was the case, and that the qualifying scores would continue to increase, AND that it would eventually affect all levels[/QUOTE]

My apologies then to the original poster. I have my faults, but I never knowingly hone in on someone else’s idea and re-package it as mine.

Slc2, your post indicates a trend NOT TO EDUCATE ALL but pick a certian portion (less then 20%) of an overall membership. So, is that legal? Does than that entity deserve not-for-profit status?

So if there is a dismantling of All Breeds to focus on an elite group of riders, dismantling fair access to educate all to distinctly favor a few… it’s looking like a c-corp, LLC, or another entity to me. Which leads to revoking 501©(3) status. And the IRS has a form for that:

Abusive transactions: Complaint to IRS on Non-Profit
http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/f13909.pdf

[QUOTE=slc2;3076987]
Actually a rep who posted here already said that that was the case, and that the qualifying scores would continue to increase, AND that it would eventually affect all levels[/QUOTE]

My apologies then to the original poster. I have my faults, but I never knowingly hone in on someone else’s idea and re-package it as mine.

Slc2, your post indicates a trend NOT TO EDUCATE ALL but pick a certian portion (less then 20%) of an overall membership. So, is that legal? Does that entity deserve not-for-profit status?

So if there is a dismantling of All Breeds to focus on an elite group of riders, dismantling fair access to educate all to distinctly favor a few… it’s looking like a c-corp, LLC, or another entity to me. Which leads to revoking 501©(3) status. And the IRS has a form for that:

Abusive transactions: Complaint to IRS on Non-Profit
http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/f13909.pdf

Any one know how long All Breeds has been around? Like a decade or longer it’s been a highly successful program?

Funny, now all of a sudden (after USDF has been doing a great job in the education business since 1973) one can’t ride third without a special series of tests. Hmmmm, doesn’t sound like the education process was all that successful…

Any one know how long All Breeds has been around? A decade or longer? And all that time it’s been successful?

I don’t know much about the legal side, but I am not really at all sure that selecting elite sports performers and offering them special training comes under the category of denying someone an education. I don’t think that has a leg to stand on.

If the USEF just offers additional training opportunities to upper level riders, its 501©(3) status would be fine I would think. However, if the organization relinquishes its role in educational programs for all members by dismantling All Breeds, that could become a sticky wicket.

They wouldn’t get rid of all breed per se (actually, it’s not spelled ‘per say’), but qualification would mean that most of the all breed scores would not be high enough to allow those riders to show at various levels. If qualification expands, it wouldn’t allow most of them to show at most levels. i am sure of one thing - qualification would cut a great many riders out of the awards they now get - they are getting awards for showing at scores below the ‘qualification barrier’.

It is in fact really strange and ironic to read the year book and think about what a huge impact qualification would have. Without another round of very big ‘score inflation’, it would have huge effects.

Who? When? I must have missed this.

Actually, most elite riders did develop by showing at the lower levels when they first came up through the ranks. This is especially true of anyone going through the Jr/YR system. Don’t forget, the rider only has to go through the levels once in their lives to be able to show back at lower levels (with this system).

Personally, I’m hoping that the continuous extension of the young/developing horse classes, the ultimate “opt in” classes, will appease the tinkerers-that-be.

The USDF (yes, DF) every once in a while does come up with programs aimed towards what I consider to be elite/wealthy riders whose horse budget is some multiple of my gross annual salary. Lots of people write in at these times. One time, my editorial made it into a Connections and also started a lively email discussion with a USDF member about “the importance of our future Olympic teams” (which I don’t buy). The program didn’t go through as proposed. The point I guess I’m making is that member opinion, esp. en masse, makes a big difference and sometimes reminds these organizations what the base is all about as well as what the average, not elite, rider experiences.

J.

They may have, but I don’t feel that is what causes them to develop into elite riders. They get extra training, they apprentice under top trainers who are already doing what they want to do. And quite a few of them were eventers, not YR, at least in the past. Now that YR programs are stronger that may change.