USEF High Performance Dressage ... and the Performance Standard Rule

[QUOTE=slc2;3077846]
They wouldn’t get rid of all breed per se (actually, it’s not spelled ‘per say’), but qualification would mean that most of the all breed scores would not be high enough to allow those riders to show at various levels.[/QUOTE]

Bingo. It couldn’t legally be allowed to happen as stated, yet that would be the underlying result.

  • RYs data shows there is no need to restrict entry at the upper levels as per the original proposal.

  • All Breeds has been around a long time and quite successful. It is largely this program that proves learning dressage is available to everyone.

  • catering to a select few, or the restricting upper levels from fair entry, is not something that qualifies as the education business.

  • restricting certian breeds from continuing to participate in an established and quite successful program is not something that qualifies as the education business.

The hard thing is proving the trend to this, but maybe data will support. Certianly adding rules that have ths impact, while at the same time do not help those who meet this standard actually ride better, should indicate such a trend.

It actually appears that ‘all breeds rides’ are responsible for a very large number of rides in shows in many areas.

I took a couple ‘elite’ shows (those with cdi classes and a lot of pros competing on more expensive horses) and compared them to ‘grass roots’ shows - smaller shows in dressage-strong areas, or shows with more owner/riders, non warmblood breeds in higher percentages, areas not traditionally dressage boom areas, etc. If the ‘all breed rides’ decreased in accordance with them seeing much less purpose or possibility at recognized shows, then I think that in some areas, show participation WOULD drop. One thing I’m sure of, even if a person DID manage to qualify to ride at third level, I seriously doubt any awards would be awarded for scores below the qualifying mark.

I felt that dressage would change markedly when the USEF stepped in. Basically what they’re doing is trying to make it as much as possible like their other divisions. Grass-root types compete in schooling shows and saddle club shows, and higher dollar and not-quite-elite to elite riders go in the recognized shows. None of the better heeled amateurs or professional riders will complain. And as the economy changes, gas prices, membership and class fees rise, they may be the only ones who can really afford recognized shows anyway.

and ah…when they say ‘education’, keep in mind that isn’t defined well enough to really be able to say when they AREN’T educating people. I think that’s basically another ‘bell and whistle’ type thing.

What would happen if open riders had to qualify, but amateurs were not required to qualify, but they could face being ‘removed’ from a level if 1-2-3 different judges at different shows feel they’re not cutting it, or their scores are below a minimum boundary? That doesn’t address what I think is their real goal, which is raising the average score for a level (not abusive rides, etc).

Another thing I think one can logically expect is that the regional qualification scores will have to also be raised again. I bet that’s going to be another effect of this qualification.
No one’s discussed that yet, but logically, that would have to happen as well. You can’t let people to go to regionals at 2nd level if they don’t hit that qualification level score, can you? Probably not. It makes no sense.

And we might also eventually see ‘drop dead scores’ at all levels where you can’t show unless you maintain a minimum. Eventually, that would, I think, eliminate people from showing at training, first, second level as well.

The philosophy in the past has always been, if you suck, you show and get a bad score, and if you get an average score, you just keep showing, you may get better, you may not. Oh well. You pays your money you gets your ticket.

Dressage for years has been a place where anyone could learn and grow with any horse. If I understand people correctly, THAT is what people are upset about - losing that.
Perhaps in some ways we always had a little too much freedom, and some people abused that.

But one thing I totally refuse to accept is that a ride from 55-62 percent is by definition an ‘abusive ride’ if you can (and I have) gotten scores like that for accurate, quiet tests (really, typical amateur tests) that just weren’t quite forward enough. That I just will never accept is an ‘abusive ride’. And that, to be honest, is what most amateurs in that range are doing.

[QUOTE=slc2;3077846]
They wouldn’t get rid of all breed per se (actually, it’s not spelled ‘per say’), but qualification would mean that most of the all breed scores would not be high enough to allow those riders to show at various levels.[/QUOTE]

Bingo. It couldn’t legally be allowed to happen as stated, yet that would be the underlying result.

  • RYs data shows there is no need to restrict entry at the upper levels as per the original proposal.

  • All Breeds has been around a long time and quite successful. It is largely this program that proves learning dressage is available to everyone.

  • catering to a select few by disenfranchising others, or the restricting upper levels from fair entry, is not something that qualifies as the education business.

  • restricting certian breeds from continuing to participate in an established and quite successful program is not something that qualifies as the education business.

The hard thing is proving the trend/results, but maybe data will support. Certianly adding rules that have ths impact, while at the same time do not help those who meet this standard actually ride better, should indicate such a trend.

This may prove to be a truer statement of the future than we all might think. The vibe that I am getting from various conversations is that part of the driving focus with this rule is to make dressage appear better in public – only the ‘best’ are allowed to compete in licensed shows.

Now, minor details such as:
-you can qualify at one level and still suck at the next
-there is no provision for being sent back a level if you suck at the next
-you can qualify on one horse and suck at showing another at a higher level

do not appear to be part of the decision process.

star

[QUOTE=slc2;3077846]
They wouldn’t get rid of all breed per se (actually, it’s not spelled ‘per say’), but qualification would mean that most of the all breed scores would not be high enough to allow those riders to show at various levels.[/QUOTE]

Bingo. It couldn’t legally be allowed to happen as stated, yet that would be the underlying result.

  • RYs data shows there is no need to restrict entry at the upper levels as per the original proposal.

  • catering to a select few by disenfranchising others, or the restricting upper levels from fair entry, is not something that qualifies as the education business.

  • restricting certian breeds from continuing to participate in an established and quite successful program is not something that qualifies as the education business.

The hard thing is proving the trend/results, but maybe data will support. Certianly adding rules that have ths impact, while at the same time do not help those who meet this standard actually ride better, should indicate such a trend.

[QUOTE=ShotenStar;3079453]
Now, minor details such as:
-you can qualify at one level and still suck at the next
-there is no provision for being sent back a level if you suck at the next
-you can qualify on one horse and suck at showing another at a higher level

do not appear to be part of the decision process.[/QUOTE]

adding:

-dressage has a USEF score card that indicates sufficiency at that level, so why create an additional USEF standard that is in conflict with the first.

-dressage has a FEI score card that indicates sufficiency at that level, so why create an additional USEF standard that is at odds with the FEI.

My own feeling is that no one is going to stop this, Rebecca or anyone else, and I’m not saying that to downgrade Rebecca. I think her intentions are wonderful and she is someone I have always looked up to. She is brilliant, fair, methodical, logical, yet has empathy for others. She is a great human being.

I think there is something called organizational momentum going on. I think the people on the committee are convinced that this is needed and that it’s a good thing. Those who object are those weak riders who would lose the ability to show at 3rd and 4th…and clearly, those we don’t need in the new modern age of dressage. In some sad ways, this sort of change is an expected part of dressage becoming a ‘popular’ riding sport, a part of those higher olympic placings, pretty freestyles, magazines, interviews and web sites, all of which did not exist 15 or 20 years ago (yes i know the websites are new, but i mean the WHOLE ball of wax of dressage being a publicized sport). It’s actually very hard to explain what dressage was 30 or 40 years ago…it was a tiny little group of very devoted people who were fairly aware that it wasn’t a way to get wealthy, and didn’t care if people said, ‘WHO?’ when they heard their name. It was almost a counterculture…and of course the down side of that is that there were people all over claiming to be experts doing very poor training…and they had a completely captivated audience back in those days…

I think there ARE good aspects of it, I really do. I just think that not having any other options, which European countries DO have, means that less affluent competitors are going to be…scr*wed. A different show track, a different showing organization, a ‘testing out’ process…NOTHING. There is NOTHING.

And unfortunately, unless alternatives materialized, I think the boundary line is going to be in the six figure annual salary range; that’s a guess, but it may not turn out to be all that wacked out.

They wouldn’t prevent any ‘alternative breed’ horses from competing at all. The people that own the horses would decide to do that, or be out based on scores.

There are already people going out and getting bronze medals - people who as far as I know haven’t focused on showing training, 1st, 2nd for a decade or more…WOW.

I agree that is is an uphill battle … but like my sigblock says, well armed lambs need to contest these things.

We have already managed to stop the initial proposal and our fussing as made the Dressage Committee back up several steps and consider things they had not thought of before. We need to remain watchful and do a thorough review and discussion of whatever the next version might be. Our input MATTERS … if not to them, to us. I, for one, need to know that I was actively involved in the process, not passively sitting on the sidelines.

star

Forgive me if this has already been stated - if so, I obviously missed it - but it sounds as though the intent is to make the entire sport of dressage a high performance sport. IOW, they are moving toward a PRO organization and only want serious professionals capable of competing successfully at top national and international levels. I wonder where they think the funding will come from to support these PRO circuits once they run the amateurs out of USDF/USEF - after all, it is the amateurs who are the financial backbone of dressage competitions in this country.

from wealthy people who pay to have the pro show their horses, both of whom join the organizations and pay dues and vote and participate in committees, etc.

[QUOTE=ShotenStar;3079453]

Originally Posted by slc2 " I felt that dressage would change markedly when the USEF stepped in. Basically what they’re doing is trying to make it as much as possible like their other divisions. Grass-root types compete in schooling shows and saddle club shows, and higher dollar and not-quite-elite to elite riders go in the recognized shows…"

ShotenStar: This may prove to be a truer statement of the future than we all might think. The vibe that I am getting from various conversations is… only the ‘best’ are allowed to compete in licensed shows.

Now, minor details such as:
-you can qualify at one level and still suck at the next
-there is no provision for being sent back a level if you suck at the next
-you can qualify on one horse and suck at showing another at a higher level

do not appear to be part of the decision process.

star[/QUOTE]

The thing about the tiers in hunter/jumper is no one show can handle the number of entries if everyone decides to show up. It’s really a fair way to manage oversubscribing since it is set up to be a level playing field.

This does not work in upper level dresage: often the combined UL entries at any one show doesn’t even pay for the upper level judge’s show and transportation fees. These “elite riders” most often can’t carry their own show: the reason the show grounds were rented and the reason they are even able to appear in front of a judge is because the “lesser” riders are footing their bill.

adding to star’s Minor Detail list:

  • once one alienates the majority of a membership of any org, one stands the risk of alienating the sponsors, in this case: ABIC (Regional Dressage Championships), Adequan, Dressage Extensions (Year End Awards), Dover Saddlery (Adult Amateur Medal).

  • I can’t really say USEF would be endearing itself to the American Horse Council by disenfranchising many american breds (AHC represents all segments of our nation’s diverse horse industry) http://www.horsecouncil.org/

SIGH are we in for yet another name change? It is the United States Equestrian Federation (it’s name indicates it represents most/all United States horses). It’s not Olympics-R-US … right?

Perhaps it’s time for a leadership change at the USDF? If the current ones aren’t representing the bulk of the membership…perhaps it’s time to nominate a new slate and move forward with those who do represent the membership?

If an organization changes direction, that by definition doesn’t ‘represent the masses’. I really think they have decided this is needed, over and above any objections. I’m not sure any new representatives would think it is not needed…that is a big assumption. People can just as well get into leadership positions because they are pro qualification.

I don’t mind at all that there’s an effort to improve upper level riding, I think that’s appropriate and good forward thinking.

I object to doing it by disenfranchising so many.

I object to doing it by purposely setting up a system that overtaxes non-dressage breds by training them past their limits to attempt to produce gaits they don’t have.

Want all elite rider shows? Than host Invitationals. Set whatever standard you want to attend an Invitational, must score 68 and above. And because it is an invitational, you don’t need to even invite someone you don’t want – even though they qualify.

But figure out how to pay for it: sponsors, mega-entry fees… Knock yourself out, have it be a destination event and a horse sales event where breeders can show elite horses to the elite riders/buyers. Set up an Invitational Circuit…

But if the USEF is going to posture itself as having an All Breed Award program, then offer one. Stop dismantling the successful one we already have. And stop pretending that over suspension on gaits has anything to do with the quality of correct gymnastic development and training of a horse.

I will never agree that most of our better trained dressage judges are so blind as to simply give nice horses great scores when they are badly ridden.

:no:

Never. I have much more faith in our dressage judges than that. There are always a few bad judges out there, but I feel our good judges are MUCH better than the above suggests. And I know, because all I ever showed was ‘Other’.

But the plain fact is that a horse that can bend his joints more, be more supple, has more natural balance, has better conformation, he does, and he should, score better in dressage, given similar riding. And it’s just like any competition, the better I do overall, gathering as many points from all areas judged, the better I place in the results.

My horses were ALL limited. I NEVER begrudged anyone a better placing if they rode better, OR if they rode about the same on a more athletic, able horse. That’s what competition is all about. Points are rewarded for accuracy, for rhythm, activity, forwardness, straightness, bend, suppleness, balance, and yes, the freedom and ability to bend the joints freely, swing the shoulder, swing the back, etc. I can IMPROVE my little Bra-Tester pony, I can go more forward, I can learn to focus better on the test, I can do a LOT of things and raise my score alot, but I can’t get out what God didn’t put in and I don’t care what God didn’t put in if I’m learning, improving and spending time with my horse.

But at the same time, I want to be able to have those opportunities to learn and improve, and there is no better way to improve one’s riding than to show in front of a good quality judge.

VERY few people can afford to train with a person with the knowledge and experience of our senior judges. The logistics of even scheduling the time or getting there are impossible for us working folks, let alone the overall cost.

I could NEVER in the past have afforded to work with a Mike Poulin, or Axel Steiner, or Jaap Pot, or Linda Zang…never. But by showing I get a very, very valuable and rare opportunity to work with people I could never even get CLOSE to working with! What not having qualification does is it gives people like me far, far more exposure to that knowledge and that experience than they EVER could otherwise.

Sitting listening to them in a clinic setting is NOT the same as showing. Showing and riding and talking with the person, and going home clutching that damn test and saying, ‘****, I got stuff to work on’ has improved more riders than any qualification EVER will. And if they stink, getting a crappy score in a show and a ‘learn to sit the trot!’ is going to go MUCH MUCH further than never getting out there and finding out!

[QUOTE=slc2;3082782]
Sorry sm, I will never agree that most of our better trained dressage judges are so blind as to simply give nice horses great scores when they are badly ridden.[/QUOTE]

Where did I write better trained dressage judges give nice horses great scores when they are badly ridden?

i took your name off my post, then.

it has, however, been said many times in the course of these discussions about qualification, that we need a new organization among other reasons, because the judges judge wrongly. they don’t use all the marks, they judge unfairly, they reward bad riders on nice horses with high scores. they reward bad riding on nice moving horses. i am still disagreeing with that.

For what it’s worth, slc, the worst judge I’ve ever seen is still judging and is a relative of a highly-placed national equestrian organization bigwig. S/he did indeed give good scores to fancy movers, regardless of their performance otherwise. You could look at a class list and place them without seeing the rides if you knew who the rider was (BNT) or if the horse was obviously a fancy mover. Many people have remarked, “Perhaps if I hung a huge price tag on my horse’s tail, I’d get a better score from __________.” The well-trained good to average movers were/are always low scored by this person (and VERY low score - i.e., 38% for what even most “hard” judges would score in the 57% to 61% range). Now, I will agree that such judges are few, but they ARE out there and USEF/USDF does nothing about them. Perhaps part of the problem is that people have simply given up: They are (rightfully) convinced that lodging a complaint merely paints them as “complainers” or “whiners.” All judges are perfect and fair. Riiiiiiight.

[QUOTE=Touchstone Farm;3081811]
Perhaps it’s time for a leadership change at the USDF? If the current ones aren’t representing the bulk of the membership…perhaps it’s time to nominate a new slate and move forward with those who do represent the membership?[/QUOTE]

I have been following these discussions for some time now and have been wondering something. After reading this post by Touchstone, I finally would like to wonder “out loud”. Not that I am on one side of this issue or the other…but how do we know that the current leadership DOESN’T represent the bulk of the membership???

For those of you on this board who are so opposed to a qualifying system, there may be plenty more who don’t even read internet bbs that are in SUPPORT of a qualifying system.

I was told by someone who read RY’s report that the “data” that you guys have come up with actually SUPPORTS the idea of a system. If 43% of riders at 2nd level are scoring BELOW 60 percent, then there is a problem. 2nd level is where proof of basics comes in, in my humble opinion. And I personally have taken a quarter horse and a TB to second level and scored mid 60s YEARS ago. If the training is correct, I don’t care what breed you ride, you should be able to score above 60 percent. I think that judges WANT to reward good training and riding. And most of those judges STARTED OUT on non-warmbloods themselves most likely.

I said I wasn’t claiming to take a stand either way, but as I have talked this out through typing this post, it sounds like I might be in favor of a qualifying system myself.

anne

[QUOTE=Sandy M;3082805]
For what it’s worth, slc, the worst judge I’ve ever seen is still judging and is a relative of a highly-placed national equestrian organization bigwig. S/he did indeed give good scores to fancy movers, regardless of their performance otherwise. You could look at a class list and place them without seeing the rides if you knew who the rider was (BNT) or if the horse was obviously a fancy mover. Many people have remarked, “Perhaps if I hung a huge price tag on my horse’s tail, I’d get a better score from __________.” The well-trained good to average movers were/are always low scored by this person (and VERY low score - i.e., 38% for what even most “hard” judges would score in the 57% to 61% range). Now, I will agree that such judges are few, but they ARE out there and USEF/USDF does nothing about them. Perhaps part of the problem is that people have simply given up: They are (rightfully) convinced that lodging a complaint merely paints them as “complainers” or “whiners.” All judges are perfect and fair. Riiiiiiight.[/QUOTE]

One other thing…in regards to bad judging (and I agree that they are out there), competitors NEED TO TAKE THE TIME TO FILL OUT THE FORMS to complain. Seriously, if competitors aren’t filing complaints, then how can the USEF do anything about them? I have been to the conventions and have heard the head of the judges committee say that they want competitors to take those forms seriously.