USEF on the Defensive

[paw]

@IPEsq

For most of the things we’ve been discussing, your question really is, “why it’s so important to horse show with a horse who needs to be on medications?” Full stop. “For competition” is a red herring. For allergies and chronic conditions, they’d be getting those meds to have an enjoyable non-competition life at home as well. I’m asking, why must we withdraw all therapeutic meds under an arbitrary 24-48 hours before competing if there’s no science behind that rule or indication that the treatments are performance enhancing for horse shows, and there is actual science indicating the meds must be dosed every day, a couple times a day, for therapeutic benefit? It can thus be against the welfare of the horse, not for it. The TUE process exists but USEF won’t allow it for anything other than Pergolide. Why?

Ah, but where do you draw the line between theraputic Zyrtac (or whatever) and therabutic bute? Frankly, I don’t think Peroglide should be ok, either.

But I’m taking the devil’s advocate position. We used to live (more) in a world where (most) horses weren’t showing 40 or 50 weeks a year, and the Industry wasn’t so predominant.

I haven’t competed in years, mostly because I got fed up with the “medication regimen” that the trainers I was with insisted on. I’ve since changed trainers, my horses are no longer on anything, and they’re working better than they were before. I’m having more fun, too. This is a tack that’s certainly not for everyone.

But USHJA (and USEF) is not doing anyone any favors by not addressing the issues.

[dmveventer]

@paw

Ah, but where do you draw the line between theraputic Zyrtac (or whatever) and therabutic bute?

Again you’re conflating managing symptoms with masking symptoms. Zyrtec actually works to counteract the allergic reaction, bute just prevents the horse from feeling pain without touching the underlying cause. There are a lot of different types of medications out there that do very different things, taking an all-or-nothing approach makes no sense. No one is talking about pushing a horse through pain. We’re talking about allowing drugs that actually address the underlying issue so there’s nothing left to push through.

@paw

But I’m taking the devil’s advocate position. We used to live (more) in a world where (most) horses weren’t showing 40 or 50 weeks a year, and the Industry wasn’t so predominant.

Not sure what this has to do with anything. A horse with allergies will still have allergies whether you’re talking about a week-long show or a one-day event. There are certain conditions that you can’t manage your way out of without medication, so while it’s great that you were able to switch trainers and get your horses off of unnecessary drugs it’s really not the same thing.

[Amberley]

@paw

Ah, but where do you draw the line between theraputic Zyrtac (or whatever) and therabutic bute? Frankly, I don’t think Peroglide should be ok, either.

Zyrtec is not performance enhancing or an analgesic. That’s where I draw the line.

[IPEsq]

NSAIDs and Robaxin fall under a different rule than the one I’m discussing with respect to the increased withdrawal time proposal. Those rules allow for therapeutic use of Bute up to 12 hours out.

[endlessclimb]

I think that withdrawing a medication from a horse that they NEED to feel normal/be baseline for the sake of a show - is inhumane. If the horse needs the meds, then taking them off of them X amount of time before a show is really bizarre.

I would never take my horse off of an allergy med or prascend for the sake of a ribbon, if that medication helped him feel his best.

[atl_hunter]

We can agree to disagree, but I can say wholeheartedly that my horse does, indeed, enjoy showing. He especially enjoys the under saddle - so much that we call it the “dance party.” I do agree that most horses probably don’t care or don’t enjoy it, but some horses actually do enjoy being out around other horses. It’s a pretty social atmosphere for horses. My horse even watches other horses on course. Not saying he’s judging or making human thoughts about it, but he is quite curious.

[SonnysMom]

I work at a hunter farm. 36 acres of pasture. 32 horses on the property. 2 ponies on Pergolide, 1 horse on Pergolide. One of the two ponies is Cushings. The other 2 equines are IR. Both ponies routinely spend time in dry lots. The horse tends to drop weight so he is partially on grass and partially on dry lot. All three are sound. Why shouldn’t they compete? Do we deny the humans that ride them their insulin or metformin if they are diabetic?
IR/Cushings horses are not in pain.
Our horses do 1 or 2 away shows in stalls per YEAR for a week at most. No, that are not as fat as ticks.
Why eliminate safe school horses and ponies from being able to show? That would seem to be a way to make showing more expensive. Lets reduce the pool of horses available to purchase/lease for rated shows. This drives up the cost for those that are available. Many Cushing/IR horses or ponies are older and have that been there-done that is so essential for starting riders, for scared newbies, for returning adults.
So should these equines that have so much experience and value as a show horse now be relegated to only a lesson horse? Once again IR/Cushings horses are not in pain. Their treatment to my mind is the like the treatment for diabetic people.

[Pennywell_Bay]

@paw

To my mind, if a horse needs to be medicated to be “comfortable”, it shouldn’t be showing. Yes, that’s pretty simplistic, but it’s where I’ve wound up after many trips around the sun.

takes away Paws Aleve or Advil……

[Rumorhasit93]

@Demerara_Stables

Are there no schooling/unrated shows for your discipline?

I’ll speak for myself, but the reason I don’t go to schooling shows in my area is…it looks bad. The jumps don’t go to my height (jumpers are 1m and under) so, I’d be showing lower than what we do at USEF shows.

When I was a kid and couldn’t afford to go to more than two local A shows a year, I LIVED for my local schooling shows. The absolute best memories. And kids from big A barns did attend for the small C shows they hosted, but sadly those are no longer.

But now as an adult, I’m able to afford the bigger shows and am competitive. Even if I wanted to support these shows with my entry (as opposed to sponsorship, which I do), I just think it would be in bad taste.

I did take my horse to these shows the first summer we had her and it was a wonderful experience. But once we got to know each other, we had outgrown these shows. (Although financially it was a fantastic place to circle a couple times because I couldn’t steer and not pay a fortune for it )

If we could really support our local schooling shows and improve them, that’s a completely different topic and something I fully support!

[Samondel]

I have allergies and asthma. Cetirizine daily, Ventolin before strenuous exercise, Flovent as a treatment daily. This keeps me breathing and feeling Pretty Reasonable. That’s ok.
My horse has… allergies and asthma. Cetirizine daily, Ventolin before strenuous exercise, Flovent as a treatment daily. This keeps him breathing and feeling Pretty Reasonable. This is, for the context of recognized competition, seen as Not Ok.
As you say, this makes no sense at all. Yes, all these meds are performance-enhancing. For both of us! Breathing does tend to enhance performance!
I’d like to do some recognized dressage shows this summer and get some feedback from that level of judge. But neither of us can function without our meds, so I guess it’s not in the cards. We’re both better when it’s cold, but that’s not when the show season runs. Very frustrating.

[Ponyplusaninch]

If someone took away my millennial moroccos AKA the costco size bottles of ibuprofen, I would probably throw hands (while clenching the bottles).

I also think it’s important to remember that horses who have jobs have homes and are taken care of. When horses are no longer usable for jobs, they can very easily end up in bad situations. That is a sad fact of life; not every horse owner can support a 15+ year retirement. So I also think about this when I think about horses and medications. If meds are going to help extend the career of a horse and allow it to be COMFORTABLE and not hurt itself, that can be a win for the horse’s welfare and security.

[hrlo_1722]

Same. He knows people look at him, he is curious about other horses, and he gets a ton of attention.

[paw]

Ah, but I get to choose if my desire to horse show is greater than the pain I feel on a daily basis. The horse doesn’t get to choose. And horse showing is not an essential part of life.

[StormyDay]

I don’t think zyrtec should even require a medication report form. Probably half the horses competing on the eastern seaboard are taking allergy meds; it’s really more at this point about whether or not you remembered to fill out the medication report form. And I’d much rather have a horse taking Zyrtec than dex or Benadryl.

One of my horses is 25. He LOVES competing. I could go into detail about how I know this, but it’s not that relevant. I also have 5 other horses competing so it’s not like he has to keep doing the .65 jumpers. He’s on Equioxx. He has arthritis in his hocks. He definitely could compete without it, and he would still enjoy his job. But on the Equioxx I know he feels better. He’s also not hurting anything by doing 2 .65 classes a week, and I’d argue it’s better for him to stay in work and keep fit.
I am so grateful to USEF for allowing the medication to be used with the report form, because it means he can compete in a very regulated environment where I don’t have to worry about if the footing is bad or if they are actually measuring the jumps.
However, I also agree that he should be no where near a FEI class. A horse doing 1.40 or higher on Equioxx should cause questions.

I think that it’s important to remember that when we talk about USEF drug rules, we are talking about both the rider doing the 1.15 jumpers or the 4ft hunters and the ancient horse doing the 2ft hunter with a child. We would rightly be concerned about a horse doing the 1.15 or 1.20 jumpers on Equioxx. But the ancient horse carting someone around is basically stepping over the jumps.

[enjoytheride]

But allergy meds don’t mask pain, and you appear to also be against allergy meds.

[skydy]

@skydy

Horses that have metabolic issues at a young age, even if they don’t present as fat, I agree, should probably not be show horses. Perhaps they can do a different job, or show at local shows, where medications can keep them comfortable without violating USEF or FEI rules.

I have no issues with horses that have metabolic conditions showing (apparently USEF does), but I can’t change USEF’s drug rules, and as many people have mentioned, it’s not fair to the horses to be pulling them off their meds.

I don’t know what USEF finds objectionable in these medications because I’ve never had a horse with metabolic issues. Have people been misusing them as they misused Dex?

[StormyDay]

I guess you could use pergolide as a calming agent. You could give it a day or two before competition causing lethargy in the horse over the competition time period. But you’d have to stop it for quite some time in between competitions so it would continue to be effective for calming, it would only work in some horses, and it usually causes them to go off their feed… so I feel like it would be a lot of hassle and risk. Especially since there’s other things that don’t test that certain trainers use that works.

When there’s money and reputation involved in something people will be willing to cheat. Those people aren’t giving a scoop of bute after a hard day. They are giving a cocktail of stuff that won’t test injected into the horse.

[Renn_aissance]

@skydy

I don’t know what USEF finds objectionable in these medications because I’ve never had a horse with metabolic issues. Have people been misusing them as they misused Dex?

Pergolide can often cause drowsiness, lethargy, and general depression (“pergolide veil.”) I don’t know if anyone actually tried to use it that way. There are cheaper ways to go about it…

The D&M rules around pergolide are one of the reasons that I stopped showing at rated events when my horse was diagnosed with Cushings. (This was 12 years ago, so before the therapeutic use exemption.) There was no planet on which I was going to make him non-compliant with his medication just to go compete for a $2 ribbon. We continued to compete at the local level.

For what it’s worth, whether my horse enjoyed competing, specifically, is an open question. He has an active and curious nature and definitely did enjoy going new places and socializing when he got there. He also enjoyed problem-solving and he viewed any jumping course with a combination to be a delightful problem to address. He thought flatwork was something better saved for other people but loved to jump. Considering that the flatwork that benefited his physical well-being was distasteful to him if it didn’t come with a side of the thing he found fun, he continued jumping up to 2’6" until about 25, and since he still liked leaving the farm and going places at that point, he also horse showed (on pergolide, Previcox, and sometimes Zyrtec for seasonal allergies.) The day he got off the trailer for a little hunter pace and was nervous about being off the farm, we stopped showing.

[rogueknits]

@endlessclimb

I think that withdrawing a medication from a horse that they NEED to feel normal/be baseline for the sake of a show - is inhumane. If the horse needs the meds, then taking them off of them X amount of time before a show is really bizarre.

I would never take my horse off of an allergy med or prascend for the sake of a ribbon, if that medication helped him feel his best.

And this is why I am limited to schooling shows April-June where my horse can compete while on Zyrtec. It’s problematic in dressage land, though, because in my region that leaves me with only a handful of shows in the heat of the summer to get qualifying scores. Our first rated show of the year is going to be in early August and I’ll have to cross my fingers that he qualifies there (technically two consecutive shows at the same facility) or scramble to find another show. And this is a horse that is perfectly happy on no drugs 9 months of the year…

[StormyDay]

Can your horse go 24h between dosing?
I give the Zyrtec exactly 24h before the class will start. She’s already on a schedule of her meds once a day, so it works out for us.