USEF Rule change proposals

[tle]

Bear with me… this is something I’ve actually been thinking about for a couple weeks, since I finished listening to an audio recording of “As Long As It’s Fun: The Epic Voyages and Extraordinary Times of Lin and Larry Pardey.” The Pardeys are one of those need-no-introduction people in the world of sailboat cruising. This book is a biography of their lives and their 2 laps around the world in both a 24’ and a 30’ sailboat (both considered small) and neither of which had ANY engine. That’s the unusual part in sailboats… to not have any kind of engine. When they discuss it in the book, they explain their reason for not having an engine. They say, paraphrased, to many an engine provides a false sense of security… that with the engine they feel they can simply motor out of any trouble their sailboats get into. What inevitably ends up happening is that they take chances, that they get INTO trouble that they expect to be able to get out of because of that perceived safety net… but then something goes wrong (in many cases in their world, it’s that a bow line gets tangled on a propeller – which means they can’t motor out of trouble).

Training to Prelim has ALWAYS been a big jump. Because of knowing that kind of jump, the move has always garnered inherent respect. Personally, I moved up almost a full year AFTER I thought about making it because of that big jump in expectations and difficultly. I also picked what most considered a GOOD first Prelim. I wonder now if the addition of a Modified division, aside from the inherent issues foisted onto organizers - more time/money in jumps plus problems with the standards in SJ, is akin to adding an engine to a sailboat. That people will now not respect the move up as much and will motor themselves into trouble that they are ill prepared or able to get out of, and what the consequences of that will be.

[JP60]

[QUOTE=tle;8279340]
Bear with me… this is something I’ve actually been thinking about for a couple weeks, since I finished listening to an audio recording of “As Long As It’s Fun: The Epic Voyages and Extraordinary Times of Lin and Larry Pardey.” The Pardeys are one of those need-no-introduction people in the world of sailboat cruising. This book is a biography of their lives and their 2 laps around the world in both a 24’ and a 30’ sailboat (both considered small) and neither of which had ANY engine. That’s the unusual part in sailboats… to not have any kind of engine. When they discuss it in the book, they explain their reason for not having an engine. They say, paraphrased, to many an engine provides a false sense of security… that with the engine they feel they can simply motor out of any trouble their sailboats get into. What inevitably ends up happening is that they take chances, that they get INTO trouble that they expect to be able to get out of because of that perceived safety net… but then something goes wrong (in many cases in their world, it’s that a bow line gets tangled on a propeller – which means they can’t motor out of trouble).

Training to Prelim has ALWAYS been a big jump. Because of knowing that kind of jump, the move has always garnered inherent respect. Personally, I moved up almost a full year AFTER I thought about making it because of that big jump in expectations and difficultly. I also picked what most considered a GOOD first Prelim. I wonder now if the addition of a Modified division, aside from the inherent issues foisted onto organizers - more time/money in jumps plus problems with the standards in SJ, is akin to adding an engine to a sailboat. That people will now not respect the move up as much and will motor themselves into trouble that they are ill prepared or able to get out of, and what the consequences of that will be.[/QUOTE]
Being a sailor I am familiar with the Pardey’s, reading their articles and exploits as they cruised around the world. While I get your point to a degree, I would caution that the Pardey’s are the exception, not the rule. Their skill and almost life time experience spent on the water with sails gives them a more unique position, a WIlliam Fox Pit type of position to talk from.

Most sailors, even experienced ones will comment that the engine actually serves both as a safety feature and convenience they would much prefer for it is possible to tangle that mooring line or rode around a prop, if you are less experienced and find your self caught in a storm, dropping sails and powering become a better option till one learns to sail in heavy air.

I’m waxing theoretical as I don’t plan to extend past Training, but when I look out across the totality that is Eventing, there is a vast array of talent, some natural, some not. Having the ability to “test the waters”, so to speak, before having to go full on is a possible way for folks on the cusp to better understand what it takes to go at that next level. Consider that 2/3/4* courses give options on tougher questions so a rider is not overfaced the first time out, but can take the option, gain experience, confidence to build on for the next go.

The bigger burden/issue is on the organizer for now the need to build in course that attempts to use both aspects of T and P. What does that do to costs?

I have to say, I love that someone else used a sailing analogy other than me in this forum I find the two worlds not that different in some concepts (balance, lightness, feel, confidence)

[bornfreenowexpensive]

I suspect the modified division just will not be offered much.

For example, events CAN offer a PT division now (Prelim dressage and stadium, you run training xc, qualifies as a training run for year end awards and qualifications). This takes very little effort if they are already running training (no new xc course). It is rarely offered and rarely fills. So I just don’t see much more effort being done to offer the new modified division.

[Heinz_57]

[QUOTE=subk;8278630]
Hmmm…I’m thinking it might be time to upgrade the Tipperary vest I bought a year before they were first mandated in the rules…[/QUOTE]

Mine’s not quite THAT old, but let’s just say my mom bought it for me back in the days before I even had a driver’s license. I’m surprised I ever convinced her to spend the fortune it cost, even back then!

Either way, I will not be pleased if this rule is passed.

[asterix]

We sometimes run the P/T (and or T/N) at Waredaca. As SJ crew, we always look at the order of go and say “here it comes…” because usually P/T is a TRAIN WRECK. The riders are really petrified. I totally get this - I now get petrified very easily in SJ after a bad wreck…but it doesn’t instill a lot of confidence that these folks are really on the cusp of moving up safely.
Maybe the modified will help this group of riders. I suspect it won’t be offered much, though, for the reasons BFNE states.

[bornfreenowexpensive]

[QUOTE=asterix;8281364]
We sometimes run the P/T (and or T/N) at Waredaca. As SJ crew, we always look at the order of go and say “here it comes…” because usually P/T is a TRAIN WRECK. The riders are really petrified. I totally get this - I now get petrified very easily in SJ after a bad wreck…but it doesn’t instill a lot of confidence that these folks are really on the cusp of moving up safely.
Maybe the modified will help this group of riders. I suspect it won’t be offered much, though, for the reasons BFNE states.[/QUOTE]

LOL…I truly hope that I didn’t look that bad in the last PT I did! But I don’t see this modified helping with scary stadium. really…read like it will be same size as Prelim or maybe one inch less?

But it is a division typically full of people perhaps not quite ready and hence a bit scary. But I do like when it is offered…

[asterix]

[QUOTE=bornfreenowexpensive;8281378]
LOL…I truly hope that I didn’t look that bad in the last PT I did! But I don’t see this modified helping with scary stadium. really…read like it will be same size as Prelim or maybe one inch less?

But it is a division typically full of people perhaps not quite ready and hence a bit scary. But I do like when it is offered…[/QUOTE]

You ran in May, no? I was on vacation
And this last time, for the record, we had several lovely rounds by folks who looked entirely competent to go Prelim.
But as a general rule…it is scary.
The other (totally unrelated) “rules” we live by: Training has the most rails and often the most scary moments (as in, gasp-worthy). Novice has the most falls. BN has hardly any rails, but lots of stops. :eek:

[goodmorning]

@JP60;8280999

The bigger burden/issue is on the organizer for now the need to build in course that attempts to use both aspects of T and P. What does that do to costs?

I actually think it’s easier than we think. Not all Prelim jumps are max height & could be incorporated…

[Badger]

I love the PT divisions, and did quite a few of those before moving my mare to Prelim. If it’s going to be a bit rough from increased size or nervousness or whatever, it’s better to be rough over stadium than x-c.

[fooler]

[QUOTE=bornfreenowexpensive;8281028]
I suspect the modified division just will not be offered much.

For example, events CAN offer a PT division now (Prelim dressage and stadium, you run training xc, qualifies as a training run for year end awards and qualifications). This takes very little effort if they are already running training (no new xc course). It is rarely offered and rarely fills. So I just don’t see much more effort being done to offer the new modified division.[/QUOTE]

In my experience over the past almost 40 years, very few competitors have taken advantage of the P/T divisions. Granted not the same, but if the organizers receive a similar response, low entries, then yup expect this level to wither on the vine.

[ksbadger]

From another thread on this board, I believe BETA is a “by subscription” standard i.e. you can produce a vest that meets or exceeds their requirements but unless you pay a fee on each one you can’t get BETA labelling unlike the ASTM. There are some popular vests in that situation.

[asterix]

Yes, the wording on that rule change should reference the EN standard, which is a real standard, not the BETA standard - if indeed the intention is to reference the “European equivalent” of ASTM, as it says. Hopefully that can be amended.

[Sticky_Situation]

[QUOTE=fooler;8281907]
In my experience over the past almost 40 years, very few competitors have taken advantage of the P/T divisions. Granted not the same, but if the organizers receive a similar response, low entries, then yup expect this level to wither on the vine.[/QUOTE]

I could potentially see the “Modified” division being more popular than PT among certain people … Namely, those that don’t want or intend to make the jump to Prelim but would like a little more challenge than Training provides. Many of them probably don’t enter PT, because they don’t plan to move up to P, the XC is the same as Training, and it only counts as a Training event for the purpose of points… But might well be interested in Modified as a complete division that counts separately for points and qualifications.

However, if it is to be “optional” for organizers to offer the division, they (understandably) are unlikely to want to put forth the extra cost and effort unless the demand is huge … Which it probably won’t be, at least not right away.

So with the Modified division probably being infrequently offered, it’s less likely to develop a big following of competitors showing in it on a regular basis (which is what would be needed to have big divisions every time out), rather than once or twice as a precursor to the move up to Prelim. And without big, full, regularly offered divisions, it will have a hard time getting off the ground.

[Sticky_Situation]

[QUOTE=fooler;8281907]
In my experience over the past almost 40 years, very few competitors have taken advantage of the P/T divisions. Granted not the same, but if the organizers receive a similar response, low entries, then yup expect this level to wither on the vine.[/QUOTE]

I could potentially see the “Modified” division being more popular than PT among certain people … Namely, those that don’t want or intend to make the jump to Prelim but would like a little more challenge than Training provides. Many of them probably don’t enter PT, because they don’t plan to move up to P, the XC is the same as Training, and it only counts as a Training event for the purpose of points… But might well be interested in Modified as a complete division that counts separately for points and qualifications.

However, if it is to be “optional” for organizers to offer the division, they (understandably) are unlikely to want to put forth the extra cost and effort unless the demand is huge … Which it probably won’t be, at least not right away.

So with the Modified division probably being infrequently offered, it’s less likely to develop a big following of competitors showing in it on a regular basis (which is what would be needed to have big divisions every time out), rather than once or twice as a precursor to the move up to Prelim. And without big, full, regularly offered divisions, it will have a hard time getting off the ground.

[subk]

[QUOTE=tle;8279340]
Training to Prelim has ALWAYS been a big jump. Because of knowing that kind of jump, the move has always garnered inherent respect. [/QUOTE]
Yes. I’ve always thought “the gap” between T and P was a good thing. It helps keep riders who really shouldn’t be going P from trying it–or at least getting more experience before they do.

[GotSpots]

[QUOTE=asterix;8281364]
We sometimes run the P/T (and or T/N) at Waredaca. As SJ crew, we always look at the order of go and say “here it comes…” because usually P/T is a TRAIN WRECK.[/QUOTE] Agree. I used to say there were two divisions I didn’t want to be anywhere near the warmup for: JBN, because there was always a naughty pony or a kid who couldn’t steer, and Preliminary Rider, because the level of fear was usually palpable (and I was usually adding to it when I was riding).

I hope very much that no organizers are pressured to offer this new division. I don’t know that it is necessary given that we already have the PT division and I’d hate to see organizers have to try to fit another division or course into already built properties and over crowded days.

[Cody]

I agree with you, if that rule is passed I won’t be happy either as I have a BRAND new vest I bought and was hoping to use it one day again to compete.

If the powers that be change it and require yet another new vest that’s more expensive, then they will be running some people away from the spot.

[MsRidiculous]

There are many approved vests across all price ranges, even several under $150. The only surprise about that rule change proposal to me is that we haven’t done it years ago. It’s time.

[Jealoushe]

What would that mean for vests that aren’t approved like an air vest? Still ok to wear over top? Seems kind of like an oxy moron if you have to wear approved but can also wear unapproved over top?

[ksbadger]

The standards are for vests that have specific impact & penetration resistance, neither of which an air vest has (at least if it has not deployed). The current USEF Eventing rules state you can wear an air vest over a standard one but, of course, this might be changed under this new rule. Either way maybe there should be some clarification.