USEF to test equine hair

[Xctrygirl]

So coming in to briefly sidetrack that Steve Guerdat is actually using what’s called a “Wilson Bit” with his horse from Paris.

There’s a good variety of types on the “Jump In” bit catalog:

https://www.jump-in.fr/fr/content/9-catalogue-mors
Page 35.

His bit appears to be more this variety:

https://www.abbeyengland.com/bits/driving-bits/wilson/

From that website…

" The reins are attached around both rings on each side, as this will limit the amount of inward squeezing action by them. For a stronger action, the reins can be attached to the outside rings only. This would make the bit much more severe, as the inner ring will have the potential to squeeze inward upon the mouth and jaw even more."

Em

[CBoylen]

@dags

Is it the quality of the horse though? Or is it the ever present draw reins? These imports are generally coursing 1.30 in Europe only to get here and max out at 3’/3’3" while struggling to get a clean lead change. I don’t think the quality of horse has gone downhill, but I do think the quality of riding has.

Well, the same people are showing that were showing 30 years ago, for the most part as far as Hunter professionals. And I’m certainly not adverse to a pair of draw reins under the correct circumstances. I’ll agree with you on riding and training going downhill in general, but if we are talking the top young horses in the country, not a lot of new faces are producing them, or if it’s a younger rider they are generally trained by a longtime pro.
And the Europe to US problems that you mention are understandable
. A horse has to be a lot scopier to jump same height with a hunter ride as it dowith a jumper ride. You can package one up to 1.30 that certainly might be limited to 3’ out of a huntery canter to a huntery distance. Ditto to the lead change, packaged and collected into a dressage type change, but they need to understand it better to do it without changing their canter or shape.
I just don’t think, from a hunter perspective, that the quality of horse has improved, and I think it’s lost a lot of things that define a hunter. You can start by just looking at the conformation classes and go from there.

@dags

Separately (or not), USEF/USHJA really missed the boat 30+ years ago in not recognizing the domestic opportunity to breed American Hunters, and continues to do so (see this years SBW fiasco).

The rest of your post I heartily agree with.

[Texarkana]

@CBoylen

I just don’t think, from a hunter prospective, that the quality of horse has improved, and I think it’s lost a lot of things that define a hunter. You can start by just looking at the conformation classes and go from there.

I relate this to the rise in popularity of the hunter derby.

In some ways, the derbies get back to the working hunter roots of the sport.

But in other ways, they just seem like a place to showcase jumper-bred horses who can’t quite get the rhythm and movement needed to win the traditional hunter divisions.

[Ghazzu]

@dags

I don’t think the quality of horse has gone downhill, but I do think the quality of riding has.

Ayuh.

[kenyarider]

Perhaps we could do away with the incredibly slow pace in the hunters, even amateur classes? That would fix some of the problems. Besides it is sooooo boring to watch a person crawl around the course. I have pretty much quit watching the hunters, even the big derbies because the horses are slow and the course are frankly boring lumps of flowers. Just my opinion folks.

[Aussie_2020]

So he is using it in its most severe form, yes?

[dags]

I probably leaned a bit heavily on the jr/am ring for my perspective since that’s most of the sales market, where true 3’6" horses have become some sort of unicorn and easy changes add another 40/50k in value and I cannot, in my mind, justify that these horses are so exceedingly rare and thus must command the prices they do. And then I go watch the schooling ring, see absolutely zero self-carriage from these animals cantering around staring at the dirt and go Yeah, that’s why no one has any step for the 3’6".

I’ve long had a theory that the death of the 3’6" divisions was tied to the lug-headed WBs that had very little desire to chip in and help out when the going got tough (or the distance required a modicum of extra effort). That required so much damn leg just to get moving that there was nothing left by the time you actually got to a jump, let alone 8 of them. No doubt there were plenty of folks that shouldn’t have been jumping 3’6"+ back in the day, but that TB engine, heart, and cattiness made it A LOT easier for the Average Joe to get around the 3’6" and swap leads.

So if they are truly breeding the blood back in it will be interesting to see if the pendulum swings back to a strong 3’6" (jr/am) division. That is of course IF they will ride something with a bit of it’s own engine, rather than run it out of gas first.

[dags]

Sooo… I’m thinking pulling hair for PPEs will become A Thing right along with pulling blood. And honestly, what a great idea… see what all horse has been given in the last 90 days? Yes please, go ahead and run that test before I write this check.

[Amberley]

@CBoylen

we are talking the top young horses in the country, not a lot of new faces are producing them, or if it’s a younger rider they are generally trained by a longtime pro.

Because there is no point in producing them if you’re not part of the in-group as none of that group will let their clients buy from you. Been there, done that. Showed one in the juniors and open working and did very well and sold it as a dressage horse in the end because we weren’t willing to take less than half of what the buyer was ultimately paying.

[DMK]

That is most certainly a case of a venn diagram almost completely overlapping.

@kenyarider I have long thought that it was way past time to update the stride guidelines. You want to encourage boldness, forward step and brilliance? Move the jumps out. I mean it will never happen because the pucker factor would be off the charts in the non pro divisions, but it would present modern riders and their horses with about the same choices their TB riding predecessors mostly had: forward was the only option out of a line.

[Xctrygirl]

A loose ring pulling against an outer ring on the jaw with no flash is likely still not “that severe.” But I get what the website is saying. That said it’s a driving bit setup, according to the searches I did, so I don’t know if the reference for driving vs jumping and the definition of “Severe” are aligned.

Em

[MHM]

@DMK

That is most certainly a case of a venn diagram almost completely overlapping.

We had to find a catch rider at a show a couple of years ago for a thoroughbred hunter when his regular rider was not available.

The person who ended up showing him was a good rider who did a nice job. But we could not convince the rider that the thoroughbred really did not need spurs to go around the show ring.

After the first class, the spurs came off. Lol.

[jvanrens]

@Xctrygirl

A loose ring pulling against an outer ring on the jaw with no flash is likely still not “that severe.” But I get what the website is saying. That said it’s a driving bit setup, according to the searches I did, so I don’t know if the reference for driving vs jumping and the definition of “Severe” are aligned.

Em

More common with the Standardbred races. I think we have/had one somewhere. When a horse is going all out at top speed with up to 10 horses in the same race it can make sense to not want to lose control, those wreaks can be more terrifying than a TB race. Race bikes turn into catapults. That being said, all the years I’ve been involved my dearly departed SO never used it. It was likely a bit he picked up along the way.

That being said, I can’t see the need to use the single ring on a jumper.

[dags]

I may be in the minority here, but I don’t think the answer to our hunter woes is go faster. We are already on a 12.5’-14’ step… like, Please Do Not Move The Lines Out More. These rings aren’t that big.

Hunters are slow-tempoed, not slow. The good ones are covering plennnty of ground.

And I choose hunters precisely because I do not want to go fast. My brain is slow and thoughtful, not fast and decisive, and that is why hunters are my jam.

Removing all/a lot of the related distances would accomplish the same thing without further adding to the all too common problem of “not enough step”. But that then strays from the goal of setting a course that’s only purpose is to give the horse a chance to jump in it’s very best form.

In the end, it’s a May the Best Horse Win sport, and that’s probably the core of the problem. It’s designed to showcase an animal’s quality and nothing more, which a rider generally achieves by interfering as little as humanly possible, which is aided greatly by having a set amount of feet between fences.

Again I dream of a HunterX division. Some element of style, some element of rider, some element of challenge, then let the chips fall where they may. But where you would slide such an offering among the 15+ sub 3’/1m divisions in a typical horse show week beats me.

[jvanrens]

@dags

I may be in the minority here, but I don’t think the answer to our hunter woes is go faster . We are already on a 12.5’-14’ step… like, Please Do Not Move The Lines Out More. These rings aren’t that big.

In the western world, as far as WP and HUS it’s called slow legged.

[Ghazzu]

@dags

Sooo… I’m thinking pulling hair for PPEs will become A Thing right along with pulling blood. And honestly, what a great idea… see what all horse has been given in the last 90 days? Yes please, go ahead and run that test before I write this check.

I have a recurring fantasy that someday, the horses will all be chipped with an RFID chip that will include their ID and medical history.
Until then, it is worth asking for the seller to authorize release of the veterinary records under their ownership. And you may or may not want to raise an eyebrow if they decline.

[Ghazzu]

@MHM

But we could not convince the rider that the thoroughbred really did not need spurs to go around the show ring.

After the first class, the spurs came off. Lol.

Reminds me of a client who had a roping horse that she also used for lessons.
I was watching a lesson one evening, waiting for her so we could preg check a couple of mares.
She told the kid, “ok, come up the long side, and when you get to the corner, ask for a canter. Just slide your outside leg back a bit–remember, he doesn’t need a lot of leg.”
Kid shot back with “I know how to canter.”
She got to the corner and booted the horse.
It was like a cartoon–he shot out from under her, she hung in the air briefly, then sat down hard on the dirt.
Trainer looked at her and calmly said, “I told you he dosn’t need a lot of leg.”
I damned near fell off the bench laughing.

[jvanrens]

That is hilarious!

I remember a friend of mine giving my daughter some over fences lessons, she warned DD about what to do, she’d started my mare over fences for me, things didn’t go quite as planned and DD learned an important lesson about paying attention, and I was all but ROTFL. My friend was laughing almost as hard at my reaction. In her experience most people didn’t react that way to their kid almost getting ditched.

[jvanrens]

@Ghazzu

I damned near fell off the bench laughing.

Bench W?

[Ghazzu]

@jvanrens

Bench W?

Ayuh.