Using a curb bit to extend the horse's stride

[Jackie_Cochran]

Actually the first time I brought up the double bridle with my riding teacher over ten years ago we entered rather lengthy negotiations. I went back to my dressage books and one of them suggested not using the curb chain at the beginning as a solution, with very light contact, dire warnings of pulling on the curb bit too hard, and doing this for maybe the first six rides. This solution appealed to my riding teacher who had used this horse in lessons for many years and was thoroughly cognizant of his peculiarities.

The horse I was riding then had the second most sensitive mouth of any horse I had ever ridden. Contact too strong? He would run away with his rider. Use the bit harshly? Instant inversion and bolting to the gate. We talked it over while I was on the horse (who I swear understood English), he did not object, and my riding teacher approved.

Glow, the horse, had no problems with the double bridle in my hands without the curb chain. My curb reins were sagging, my bradoon contact was light, and he started moving better under me. My riding teacher was prepared to take my double bridle right off this horse if I irritated or upset him at all. The fifth ride all three of us agreed that it would be alright for me to start tweaking the sagging curb rein, I did so at the trot (in time to his stride) and he gave me this wonderful powerful trot, my riding teacher was telling me to keep going!!!, and during this trot I was thinking “I really need to lengthen my stirrup leathers.”

When I got home I hit my dressage books, and in Nuno Oliviera’s “Reflections on Equestrian Art” I read his discussion on the different types of trots the horse can come up with, and what Glow gave me, from what my riding teacher was telling me about what his trot was like right then, was the “school trot”. To quote from Oliviera on page 76 “The school trot is characterized by a certain number of qualities: accentuated collection and elevation of the legs, carefully measured strides which are slow, high, and cadenced; full of impulsion which is much superior to that in any other gait.” Glow had never produced that trot before and my riding teacher had not seen this trot before.

Unfortunately for me his breeder had finally tracked him down and offered to take him (and his buddy who came with him) back. Since I was the only one right then who could ride this horse safely my riding teacher made a sane business decision and sent him home to his breeder. I never got to put the curb chain on this horse, but I do not think he would have minded it as long as I kept my hands LIGHT and my fingers relaxed.

Glow was the best horse I’ve ever ridden. I still miss him 10 years later.

And because of how I rode Glow with the double bridle she was willing for me to use it when I asked permission to use it again many years later on another horse, this time with a curb chain.

Curb bits need to be used LIGHTLY in order not to hurt the horse’s mouth, curb groove or poll.

[ComingAttraction]

You should try long, low and slow with whatever bit and encouraged him to stretch over his back, lower his head and engage the core. You can achieve the same without a bit or even long lining/ground work. He’d probably be grateful. They love stretching and should stretch. They are athletes.

[BigMama1]

@Jackie_Cochran

And I sit here thinking “WHY won’t you try a double bridle? You very well could get exactly the results you want and your horse will be MUCH happier with your riding.” But no, the dressage “gods” have spoken and in hunt seat/eventing/dressage riding only they are allowed to use the double bridle, and then only at a higher level of competition dressage riding, training and showing.

Because a lot of people don’t have the independent seat, balance, and subtlety needed to use a double properly

[Jackie_Cochran]

I ride Forward Seat, ala Littauer’s “Common Sense Horsemanship”. I school EVERY horse I ride in the Forward Seat system of training, including reschooling the school horses I get to ride, with the permission of my riding teachers. Long and low? EVERY ride I give the horse several chances to relax their heads, neck and forehands by riding without contact, either with the reins sagging a lot or by riding on the buckle.

I don’t “teach” the horses to go long and low, the horses have the freedom to go as long and low as they decide they need to when they need to. Many times the horses stretch out their head and necks, either in response to my leg aids or just because at that moment the horse decides that it needs/wants to stretch its head and neck out, while moving under me.

If the lesson horses did not KNOW that they always can stretch out their heads and necks they would not voluntarily stretch out for contact with the curb bit. The horses trust my hands. I did not start off this lesson horse on contact with just the curb expecting this horse to trust my contact as much as he does at the trot, and I was pleasantly surprised that this happened early. I was pretty confident that with time I would get this result but I expected it to take weeks.

My motto with the bit and reins is that my hands belong to the horse’s mouth. It is more up to me to adapt to what the horse is doing in response to my aids with my hands than it is for the horse to adapt his head carriage to my hands.

And 28 year old very experienced lesson horses can stretch, but due to the aches and pains that come with overuse of joints in my mind it is best to let the horse to stretch when he feels up to it, not when I get a bee in my bonnet of “gee, my horse needs to stretch.”

This horse has been slowly stretching himself under saddle over the last 2 years because I ride and school him according to Forward Seat principles of training and schooling. My riding teachers approve of how their horses eventually improve from my riding. Him reaching out to willingly take contact with just the curb bit is, to me, proof that my riding and training has been correct, good for the horse and that he has NO FEAR of the bits when my hands are at the other end of the reins.

[Jackie_Cochran]

According to most of the equitation books that discuss using the double bridle there is no way that I am a “good enough” rider to use a double bridle. Balance? My sense of balance is pretty bad from my MS. My coordination is pretty bad too, though it can improve with some practice, but I have to consciously direct my body to coordinate properly.

My hands belong to the horse’s mouth. I consider the willingness of the horse to take contact with the bit when I am in the saddle to be a sacred trust. I “tell” each horse I ride that I do not believe in hurting the horse’s mouth with the bit and that I will, if necessary, fall off the horse in order not to hurt his mouth. The horses pick this up and they are willing to work with me in spite of my multitude of riding imperfections because I have a neurological disease.

If I can use the double bridle probably the majority of the riders on this site could use one too. After all most of you do not have neurological diseases, most of you have MUCH better seats than I do, most of you are MUCH more secure on horseback than I will ever be no matter how many more years I ride horses.

[BrownDerby]

@Jackie_Cochran

My hands belong to the horse’s mouth. I consider the willingness of the horse to take contact with the bit when I am in the saddle to be a sacred trust. I “tell” each horse I ride that I do not believe in hurting the horse’s mouth with the bit and that I will, if necessary, fall off the horse in order not to hurt his mouth. The horses pick this up and they are willing to work with me in spite of my multitude of riding imperfections because I have a neurological disease.

Well spoken. I regard it as a very private conversation with the horse.

[SuzieQNutter]

This is something that takes a rider a very long time to learn. It does not happen overnight. I am afraid they are not the ones to judge whether they should use a double bridle and when.

People do not know what they do not know.

Pepper and I had just been to the State Dressage Championships. He was muscled and gorgeous and working correctly in a snaffle. I was working him on the arena when the new agister came down. We had not met before.

A happy sort who openly admired Pep, her horse was going around how you describe people having problems with their horse and bit. I just listened as she told me she was going to buy drawreins and use them.

The only thing I said was would you like a ride on Pepper?

Would she? YES.

She hopped on Pep who immediately went with his muzzle above his poll, as I knew he would with not yet trained hands.

I simply asked why her horse needed draw reins when even Pepper would not drop his nose for her? This did cause her to pause and think.

This is the type of rider you are suggesting puts on a double bridle. You are not qualified to go against the advice of experts with years of training and knowledge under their belt.

What you are suggesting could be very cruel to horses you do not know. It is to protect the horses that these rules are in place.

People cannot learn faster than the time they need to learn. Again this does not happen overnight and it is better to learn with experienced eyes on the ground and it is better if they learn on a horse who already understands. This is not everyone’s reality, though.

[Jackie_Cochran]

Quote–“people cannot learn faster than the time they need to learn. Again this does not happen overnight and it is better to learn with experienced eyes on the ground and it is better if they learn on a horse who already understands. This is not everyone’s reality, though.”

I was one of those people who did not have a horse trained to the double bridle, who was at a very good stable that did not have any horses trained to the double bridle that I could take lessons on, and who had a riding teacher who never taught riding with the double bridle and there was not a double bridle in her tack collection. If I wanted to learn to ride with a double bridle I had to buy the gear, introduce it to my horse, and then LISTEN to my horse, observing every reaction of his to my use of the reins. He was rather easy, the next horse I did this with was not very easy since she was basically untrained and ruined by ignorant riders.

All I had were books to read and my horse. My horse did not read the books, but my horse knew without a doubt when I did something that hurt his mouth or made no sense to him. He was an Anglo-Arab, sensitive and intelligent and he would politely tell me when my riding was horrible to him.

I do not believe in causing a horse pain. I do not believe in pounds, or heaven forbid kilos of unforgiving contact, especially with the curb bit. It is pretty easy for my hands to tell if my contact is heavy and if for some reason I do not notice I can be sure that the horse I’m riding will tell me, vehemently if needed.

Putting a double bridle on by itself will not cause miracles if the rider’s hands are harsh, heavy and insensitive, but then riders with harsh, heavy and insensitive hands torture the horses they ride even if tacked up with a “gentle” snaffle bit, a “gentler” Mullen Mouth snaffle or a bitless bridle.

If the rider learning to use the double bridle by themselves is not prepared to spend months coming to an agreement with their horse about how the rider uses the double bridle bits–they will end up ruining the experience for both the horse, who is tortured, or the rider who does not learn how to use bits responsibly so that they do not hurt the horse.

This is not a process that lends itself to predetermined schedules. It is not a process that an ambitious rider who is always trying to get up to the “next level” can do well. The HORSE has to be the one that says this is right, and many excellent equitation books have rather detailed descriptions of exactly how the horse says that “this is right, I’m comfortable, relaxed and content with your riding.”

I see no reason why a rider living in the middle or nowhere as far as learning to ride with a double bridle under a teacher who knows how to ride and school with a double bridle, on a horse who has vast training in how to perform with the double bridle, should resign themselves and their horses to continual ineffective riding with the supposedly gentler single jointed, double jointed, ported, Mullen mouth snaffles, Kimberwicks or Pelhams.

To me it is MUCH more cruel to be hanging onto a “gentler” bit with up to 20 pounds of pressure in a desperate attempt to control an unhappy horse who is gaping, inverting, and otherwise showing how much he is hurting than it is for a humble rider who gently uses the double bridle and listens to the horse.

MOST people who read my double bridle posts on here have had a lot more riding lessons than I ever had, with much more advanced riding teachers than I ever had, have much more secure seats than I ever had or will ever have, much better balance, much better coordination and much stronger on horseback than I am. MOST of the people here are probably quite capable of putting a double bridle on a horse and having a civilized ride. And why shouldn’t they? So long as they listen to their horse and are prepared for it to take a lot of time to learn how their horse reacts to how they use the reins there will not be much harm done.

[SuzieQNutter]

Yes and those with a teacher who knows how to ride with a double bridle with a horse who has vast training in how to use a double bridle will learn how to ride in a double bridle. It doesn’t matter where they live. Who says they will not?

If they are riding continually ineffectively, changing the bit is not the answer and bitting up is never the answer. How many times is this said on this forum with showjumping and eventing? The answer is to learn, learn, learn, so they are riding effectively before going into a double.

For me all my horses at the moment are going happily in a loose ring snaffle and no noseband. They have not been in enough work with a drought the worst in living memory, that we just wanted them to survive and recently flooding rains so we have just gotten over 6 months under water and in mud and when we finally did dry out, sigh, both horses abscessed. I am happy to get on again, however it means 2 horses being brought back into work and I do that in a snaffle.

[enjoytheride]

Perhaps you should consider yourself unique, as many of your posts indicate your philosophy and riding style are as such, and I certainly don’t think the double bridle belongs in the hands of most riders, especially in the casual manner that you suggest. Especially since you use the double bridle on lesson horses that are not your own, and have had no prior training in the double, with an instructor who has only used a pelham.

Edited to add, the type of bit has nothing to do with the horse extending his stride.

[Jackie_Cochran]

Decades before I ever even thought of putting a double bridle on the lesson horses I ride I had already introduced and used it on horses I owned.

Since I first started using a double bridle oh around 45 years ago, I did not ruin my horses that I used the double bridle on even though I could not find that mythical place that taught hunt seat riders to use a double bridle down here. I think that I am experienced in its use, and my riding teachers are quite content with the humane results I get with it. Every time nowadays I mildly mention that I have a snaffle that the horse might like my riding teachers are NOT asking me to do that change since they like the results I get with the double that I ride with in the Forward Seat manner of schooling and control.

An while my riding teachers may not have ridden with a double bridle they are quite qualified as to seeing if the horse I am riding is expressing any trauma, discomfort, or confusion about my use of this piece of gear, a piece of gear that when I started riding was considered well within the capabilities of most experienced riders with decent hands.

Sometimes horses make it clear that while the snaffle bits I use are adequate they tend to relax a little bit more with my hands with the double bridle. As for the type of bit having nothing to do with the horse extending his stride you will have to take it up with the horses I ride because they have definite preferences as to which bit is suitable for extending their stride calmly on contact.

I was not expecting this 28 year old QH to give me a much more extended walk with contact on the curb bit than he would with contact just with the bridoon I use, which has an identical mouthpiece to the snaffle the horses seem to prefer me using on them. I tried with contact with the bridoon, and no matter how much leg I used, even when I lightly touched his side with my spurs, nothing I did under the eyes of my riding teacher gave me the wonderful extended walk that I got when I kept contact with the Mullen mouth Weymouth curb bit.

And I asked my riding teacher’s permission before I tried this. She let me try, obviously not expecting any good results, and she was very pleased to see this horse move out at the walk better than he had before, reaching out for contact with a quiet mouth.

Why should Saddle Seat riders be the only “normal” level riders (riders without years of advanced dressage training) to be able to benefit from using the double bridle? Are Saddle Seat riders that much more advanced than experienced hunt seat riders?

I do not use nosebands because I think that the horses should be able to plainly show if I am using bits too harshly. So long as the horses are not gaping, inverting, flinging their heads around madly, trying to yank the reins out of my hands, and are obeying my rather light hand aids promptly with no signs of distress I do not see any problems with my use of the double bridle. My riding teachers do not have any problems with me using it on their horses because they like the results, just like they like the results when I finally get their horses to accept the bit properly when I ride the horse in a snaffle.

There are snaffle bits I will not ride with because I think they can hurt the horse’s mouth if my body does not work right. I am talking about double twisted wire snaffles, single twisted wire snaffles corkscrew snaffles, and bicycle chain snaffles. Just because a bit has snaffle rings and does not have any leverage does not mean it is gentler than a double bridle in anybody’s hands.

[enjoytheride]

There’s a lot to unpack here, but I can tell you that the use of the curb in saddleseat is ENTIRELY DIFFERENT than in dressage or the manner in which you seem to be trying to use it. Beginner Saddleseat riders, and indeed most saddleseat riders don’t even touch the curb.

Again, you have a fairly unique riding style and outlook and perhaps your use of the double on aging school horses is best left in your hands.

Again, the type of bit has nothing to do with the horse extending his stride.

[SuzieQNutter]

Nobody has said anything about you not using a double bridle. What grates on us is your suggestion that anyone having a problem with a horse accepting a bit should be put in a double bridle when you have no knowledge of their ability to ride or why the horse is acting like it is or their level of understanding or ability or if they are havinglessons or not. It could be from pain or the pain from their hands on the other side of the reins. In which case putting a double bridle on could lead to cruelty.

You even say that that is against the advice of everyone else in print and out there. People with a lot more experience and expertise. I am afraid to be blunt, however it seems to have gotten to that point. You listen to horses but not to anyone else. That is more than leaning to arrogance.

People seem to not be able to figure out what they can do, that another person cannot do. I was in absolute disbelief that one of the staff had been put on Venus. Of course she was bucked off. When I learned that it was the other most experienced instructor, who had told her to ride Venus, I went and asked why on Earth she put her on Venus. Venus was quiet for her. Of course Venus was quiet for her. She could ride. She could not see that an inexperienced rider would not get the same results. You seem to be in the same boat.

[Impractical_Horsewoman]

Even among top riders in dressage, there has been discussion about not requiring the double bridle at the very highest levels as it was in the past and allowing the rider to make the final call if it’s needed for their particular horse.

As a lifelong lesson person and leaser, the strongest bit I’ve used is a pelham on a very hard-mouthed pony, but also as a riding history geek with lots of old books for young people, I know that it was much more common to use pelhams on all horses as part of a rider’s early education. However, that doesn’t necessarily mean that was a good thing. I think the trend of questioning why things have always been done a certain way and adjusting bitting/training/saddles to the needs of the individual horse and rider is a good thing, versus introducing a more severe bit just because it’s considered “time to do so” on some generic timetable of the rider’s or horse’s development and learning curve.

[blue_heron]

Double bridles became optional in National competitions in 2019. I’m pretty sure it was a subject at the FEI General Assembly and “passed,” as in, in the next rulebook will say that the double bridle is not compulsory at any level.

[luvmyhackney]

I learned to use a double when I was 7/8ish. It wasn’t a big deal. I was started in a Pelham and then the double.

The double is treated like some unobtainable goal and that’s is forbidden except for the chosen few.
Kinda reminds me of when everyone used to think jumping 3’ was normal and on the smaller end.

And yeah, I’ve never seen a curb extend a horses stride but it does allow better clarity and can allow them to relax more.

[Warmblood1]

@Jackie_Cochran

According to most of the equitation books that discuss using the double bridle there is no way that I am a “good enough” rider to use a double bridle. Balance? My sense of balance is pretty bad from my MS. My coordination is pretty bad too, though it can improve with some practice, but I have to consciously direct my body to coordinate properly.

My hands belong to the horse’s mouth. I consider the willingness of the horse to take contact with the bit when I am in the saddle to be a sacred trust. I “tell” each horse I ride that I do not believe in hurting the horse’s mouth with the bit and that I will, if necessary, fall off the horse in order not to hurt his mouth.

Just curious, but how do you compensate for being imbalanced? I understand you’d rather fall off than yank a horse in the mouth, but do you have to do this? One of the most common reasons for heavy handed riders or riders in a horse’s mouth is imbalance and I’m just curious how you address this while still maintaining that the double you use is gentle and effective. Not being snarky but genuinely curious.

[Warmblood1]

Like I said upthread - a curb influences longitudinal flexion and a horse that is more over the back is going to have better extension of gaits.

Some horses also have a preference for non-jointed bits and will just perform better due to preference. I’m of the camp that not every horse should be expected to like a single jointed snaffle.

I also agree that double bridles are put on a pillar at times and often unused. That said, a good rider will train their horse to GP using a single bit. The curb is used only to refine what should already exist. The horse should be riding from the seat when on a curb.

Good hands for a double is also a misnomer - it’s good elbows that make good hands.

[Jackie_Cochran]

As a child all my family went trail riding in South America, three years or so riding on trails in the foothills of the Andes in Chile (an easy drive east of Santiago). I was put on this pony, native Chillean scrub pony, Criollo, with a snaffle bit, taught how to turn, pull as hard as necessary to stop the poor pony, and post the trot. For the canter I was told to hold onto the pommel of my saddle and just bounce. I am NOT a natural rider. We rode up and down MANY very steep paths and trotted and galloped where the trails evened out.

Beyond that my parents did not think that riding lessons were necessary. If I was not perfect from the start I was obviously fated to ride at a bad beginner’s level the rest of my life.

When we moved back to the USA I found a wondrous thing in my middle school library, non-fiction books on riding. Reading these books and talking with my fortunate classmates who took riding lessons I quickly realized that I really did not know how to ride at all. I also realized that it was possible to LEARN how to be a good rider even if one was not a natural born rider.

This was back in the time long ago when good hands were of supreme IMPORTANCE for fine, educated, and superior riding. A rider might be able to stick on over the big fences, run riotous cross-country, ride well in the riding arena at collected gaits, but educated horsemen did not consider him a GOOD rider unless he had good hands which was proven by how the horse moved under him. Good hands could even make up for some other riding sins, and I often ran into the meme that “the rider’s hands belong to the horse’s mouth”.

Several years later in 1970 I was fortunate to be able to read “Riding Reflections” by Piero Santini, one of Caprilli’s students and fellow cavalry officer. Starting on page 24 he discusses riding “above the belt”, arms, fingers On page 29-30 he discusses FINGERS, “A fist in appearance it must perforce be, for it is only by closing or crooking our fingers that we can hold the reins, but real ‘hands,’ that is the two sets of four fingers and two thumbs, (my emphasis caps) Should Resemble Those of a Violinist in Suppleness and Sensibility. I have seen things done by a mere twist of a little finger in the fraction of the second by first-class horsemen that would have taken the whole arm and shoulder–and knees and heels as well–of minor lights to do far less well.”

And now the really important part of this paragraph, on page 30.

"Nothing is quicker and stronger if properly employed than the FINGERS (my emphasis); in the subtler shadings of pace or jumping effort nothing can replace them; …
“It will always be a matter of conjecture what good hands really consist in and to what exact degree they are influenced by the seat. That a position in the saddle that allows complete independence of the torso in an invaluable asset is indisputable, but, nevertheless, on sees all around one examples which would almost seem to contradict this theory. (IMPORTANT) For instance, one of the best pair of hands I have ever seen is the envied possession of a friend of mine, the type of hunting man who makes a point of avoiding fences. As he always rides very fast horses and is on intimate personal terms with all the gates in the country, he sees most of the fun at not too great a distance. *****He has one of the ugliest and loosest seats that has ever come to my notice, but since he never jumps he never the risk of coming off or jabbing his horse in the mouth, or to any extent losing his balance, his seat is therefore of secondary importance for his own particular purposes. His velvet touch permits him to handle in the most surprising manner the kind of neurotic pulling brutes that would give better horsemen most uncomfortable rides. That, just as he cannot jump, he would also be helpless to prevent a ‘bad actor’ from going home without him has no bearing on the fact that in his particular case his hands do not suffer from his poor seat.” Then he discusses this for 5 more pages with photographs of a rider’s forearm, wrists, hands and fingers.

I remembered reading this when I learned I had MS and just how badly it was disabling me. Combined with “my hands belong to the horse’s mouth” and properly timing my hand and leg aids this results in horses who the riding teachers LIKE seeing while they teach me, free striding, reaching for contact, and showing no fear of the bit.

I also refuse to ride beyond my physical limitations, it just would not be fair to the horse and at 71 I do not bounce well at all.

[Jackie_Cochran]

First, I do not ride dressage and I have no desire or ambition or enough energy to compete in dressage shows. I get to ride maybe 30 minutes a week, though sometimes I get a “homework ride” for another 30 minutes. Due to my severe lack of energy it is a waste of my energy to “ride from the seat” when I can get the results I want by twitching my fingers and increasing the strength of my contact by a few grams. It takes a LOT LESS energy to move that finger than it takes to move my pelvis, torso, and upper thighs. Yes I could do it from my seat, if I want to only have enough energy to ride for maybe 10 minutes instead of 30 minutes each ride. I would rather do my well timed twitches of my fingers combined with rather light leg aids and have enough energy to ride for 30 minutes.

Elbows help make good hands, yes. So do shoulders and wrists. But I find that it is the sensitive use of my fingers that gets the horse “talking” to me with his tongue, lower jaw and poll. “Yes, no, maybe a little bit to that side, let me move my head further forward, what in the hell are you asking me for, oh OK I see it now, I need a 1/2” more rein, let me move my head more to the side, OK now we’ve got it little snort of contentment."

I am not a natural rider. I have severe physical limitations for any type of movement. My balance is atrocious. BUT by concentrating on my hands, the timing of my aids, and with help from my riding teacher being a “position Nazi” I can improve the horse’s walk definitely and its trot somewhat without the horse showing distress from my hands, legs or seat.