Using a curb bit to extend the horse's stride

[SuzieQNutter]

The art of learning how to use the reins is learning how not to use the reins.

Now that you are progressing on the home horse, you seem to be getting stronger in your core. You don’t seem to be tiring as much to the point of vacuuming afterwards, which you have never done before.

Hopefully you progress and you will be able to start to use your seat. Your seat is as important as good hands.

You will be able to hold forward with your seat, to ask for downward transitions without the reins and how to ask for bend AND fkexion with your seat.

I wish this for you. There is nothing in life akin to having that communication with a horse.

[Jackie_Cochran]

I do appreciate your words of help and encouragement.

BUT my current lesson horse has some “problems” (mostly minor stiffness) right behind the saddle. He most definitely does not appreciate me “using my seat” to give aids or control him. He sucks back, his back stiffens up more, and he will not relax enough to move well under me until I get my pesky seat bones OUT of the saddle.

To get a good extended walk, with him cheerfully reaching out to the bit and keeping contact, I have to get up into 2-point. Oh he will respond to my lengthening aids up to a point, but to get that marvelous ground covering extended walk I HAVE TO leave his back alone.

Occasionally I talk with my riding teacher about modifying my seat some. The problem is that my riding teacher REALLY LIKES how her lesson horses react to me not bearing down on their backs with my seat bones. She says that she really likes how I “use my seat to massage their backs” while all I am doing is getting my weight off of my seat and letting their back move without interference while my seat follows every movement lightly.

It may take a while with these lesson horses, but they end up really appreciating how I ride on their backs, I do not block the movement of their back and their back muscles, and they relax and start extending their stride because they are more comfortable under me than under other, often better, riders.

I get much better results on horses when I ride a strict Forward Seat with as little weight on their backs as possible. Inverted horses who suck back and do not want to move start relaxing and swinging those legs properly to cover ground faster than their usual 2 to 2.5 miles an hour slow slog around the ring.

Besides helping my sense of balance I am trying to use my HH so I can lighten my seat on their backs without having to lean so far forward. The lighter my seat the more willing the horses are to raise their backs properly under my seat and a lot of my current minor riding problems get better the lighter my seat is on their backs.

These are all elderly horses, they have years to decades of not so good riding in their past, plus gaping chasms the size of the Grand Canyon as far a properly picking up and keeping contact, as well as backs that are not happy with most riders. These are good lesson horses, they do not punish their riders for their faulty seats, but once they become convinced that I will treat their backs lightly they brighten up and start acting like they enjoy me riding them (I check with my riding teachers about that just about every ride.) Ears forward, striding forth fearlessly, legs swinging effortlessly under them, and calm responsive mouths are what I look for, and when the horses start using the bits calmly to “talk” to my hands I get really good rides even if the rides are just at a walk and trot.

When I grew up educated sensitive hands were considered as a basic requirement for a person to be judged as a good rider. My how times have changed, now it is “don’t use the bit, use your seat” and believe me I run into more back problems with horses now than I did during the 30 years or so that I trained or retrained my own horses using the Forward Seat and keeping my butt out of the saddle as much as I could and sitting as light as possible the times that I had to sit down fully in the saddle.

The problems with the bits are not from the bits usually, they come from the fact that the horses nowadays are rarely trained to have a proper relationship with the bit and that the riders are rarely trained to have light responsive hands. The riders are told to just use their seats instead and I end up having to retrain horses in their 20s who should have been trained properly to the bit before they were 6 years old.

The art of learning how to use the reins is to learn how to use them lightly and to immediately release the tension of the contact when the horse just starts to think about obeying the bit. This is why I can slow down and halt horses that are forging ahead just by twitching my little fingers in time with their stride. It takes me a LOT less energy to ride this way, and with my MS the less energy I use giving horses aids that they obey the longer I can last riding around without sitting like I am a sack of potatoes because I am just too tired to ride well.

Now as for balance, if I can keep my balance in the saddle without muscular effort I use my muscles a lot less which leaves me with more energy for stuff out of the saddle. I still have to take long naps after my HH rides but I will improve, I am sure.

[Alterration]

As a fellow person with some physical issues, I understand what you are saying about lightening to extend vs pushing forward with the seat. I often think of it as lifting upward with my upper calves, as I cannot at present truly get my leg around the horse with the issues I have.

As it relates to the curb, I have found some horses that appreciated the stability of the curb, and thus also went well in a Mullen baucher or egg butt. Finding one with the appropriate port for tongue relief (but not pressure) was difficult. I discovered this when they relaxed under western tack, not riding in a double.

It was not the poll pressure either, the nervous champing at the bit immediately stopped even before mounting and their mouths were soft and quiet (I have two who fell into this category).

These are not strong horses, but instead very sensitive ones. I would not recommend them for the average rider just as I would not recommend riding in a double.

So to make a long story short, I suspect in part it is the stability for some. These two horses were both known as being “difficult in the contact” prior to this discovery.

[Jackie_Cochran]

I was not really expecting this acceptance of the Mullen Mouth curb bit, because, when I tried Mullen Mouth snaffles (stainless steel & titanium coated, eggbutt) I did not get good results, as in the horses were definitely not happier with my hands and had no difficulties telling me all about it (fretfulness, reluctance to relax the lower jaw, complaints that I was not keeping my hands level enough, I ride expressive horses). It was much, much worse if the Mullen Mouth snaffle had a port of any kind or height or width. Then the horses graduated to cussing me out and asking me when in the world would I learn how to ride (yet again).

One book I’ve referred to about riding with the double bridle “The Bit and the Reins–Developing Good Contact and Sensitive Hands” by Gerhard Kapitzke says that riders have to be careful so that the non-jointed curb mouthpiece does not get “lodged” with a side to side slant in the horse’s mouth. I think I was “lodging” the Mullen Mouth snaffles in the horses’ mouths when I used my rein aids. Since the reins aids I give with the curb bit are really subtle, well timed, with immediate release-full release if necessary, and usually I use both hands, I avoid “lodging” the curb bit in the horse’s mouths.

Another thing about the curb bit, to my hands it feels like the horses’ lower jaws are starting to make subtle comments in reaction to my hand aids, giving and taking with their lower jaw. This is in addition to the already ongoing conversation with the horses’ tongues, lips and poll joints.

[Alterration]

@Jackie_Cochran

I think I was “lodging” the Mullen Mouth snaffles in the horses’ mouths when I used my rein aids. Since the reins aids I give with the curb bit are really subtle, well timed, with immediate release-full release if necessary, and usually I use both hands, I avoid “lodging” the curb bit in the horse’s mouths.

Ahhh this could well be a goodly part of it. I ride very similarly on the snaffle - very slight signals - and typically I’m not using either hand strongly enough to move the bit.

What just occurred to me is that because you are riding lesson horses they are likely accustomed to people reefing on the bit and having a very hard contact in the snaffle. They may be enjoying the difference and being less defensive because of that. I have no doubt that you are a skilled and tactful rider (regardless of the challenges you have) and those two things together probably help them a great deal.

[SuzieQNutter]

You do not sit down on any horse until the horse has the muscle for you to sit. Dressafe riders do use 2 point with green and older horses. You can not sit on a horse that is not ready for it.

That saying there are 2 ways to sit on your horse. One way is with seat bones exposed. Just sitting there you will see the horse hollow.

Or you will see the rider sit on the horse and the horse round up under them, before they even move or pick up the reins, that is the 2nd way of sitting on a horse.

[Alterration]

That’s nice for people whose bodies function. But not all of us have that luxury.

I personally have to ride very short to not have a hollow back. It’s a function of very very very bad hips and lower back. Yes I do yoga. Yes I do Pilates. I’ve had multiple surgeries to try to correct these issues and will likely have more.

So - some of us must use our bodies in different ways to achieve similar goals. Strictly correct? No. But if a horse can learn to round in-hand, they can learn without a person sitting deep. Horses are pretty spectacular that way!