Vaccinations???

[Harley_s_mom]

I just organized a vaccinations and biosecurity clinic for my regional equestrian association and we had a vet come from the Atlantic Veterinary College in PEI. She recommends vaccinating if any horse is in contact with other horses (trail riding is included), if they are transported in trailers that may have been used by other horses, or if anyone coming to your barn has been to any other barn (this includes vets and farriers - so yeah, pretty much all horses). Spread out the vaccinations if it works best (we do), but yes, at the very least, basic vaccinations are still recommended. Potomac fever is a highly unlikely one in Canada (I’m in the east), but West Nile is absolutely possible given how much warmer our summers are getting, and there have been many Strangles outbreaks in the last few years, so I’m not taking chances. However, be careful if giving the Strangles vaccine to a horse for the first time. If that horse has EVER been exposed to Strangles in the past, and is carrying antibodies, it can develop purpura haemhorragica which is a nasty, often fatal condition. There have also been cases of botulism - that is also an illness that can happen anywhere. All it takes is a dead mouse in your hay/grass.

If you choose NOT to vaccinate, know that many of those diseases are fatal (tetanus was the one vaccine which the vet insisted on since it can be caused by a simple cut), and whatever you do, DO NOT let your horses touch other horses when going off-property (this includes letting strangers pat each horse on the nose), don’t share brushes, or buckets, and change your clothes whenever you go to a different barn. I also have a foot bath for anyone coming to the barn. The reality is that horses are much more mobile than they used to be, and even if yours don’t go far, a vet might have just seen a horse freshly brought in from overseas with a lot of potential contaminants that our horses can’t fight off! Talk to your vet. Ask what they recommend for your area, under your circumstances. Very few herds are truly closed.

[Wanderosa]

I’m in Virginia. Virtually every group equestrian activity I can think of requires a Coggins certificate and certain vaccines. This includes hunts, trail groups, etc.

Another thing to consider is the possibility of having to take the horses off property in the event of an emergency. I once had a horse who got EPM while at a training barn. It was right before spring shots are normally done and he needed a new Coggins cert. It was a mad scramble between me, the vet, and the rehab farm to coordinate the bare minimum vaccines were absolutely needed and how to stagger them so we didn’t make him sicker.

I also read a story locally about a farm owner who spotted a woman hand grazing a horse in a grassy strip in the parking lot of a Home Depot. She decided to go back and talk to the horse owner. Turned out they had fled the hurricane in Florida. The horse didn’t have a Coggins or vaccinations, so they had been unable to find temporary boarding and were living out of their trailer. Fortunately, this lovely farm owner had horse facilities and no horses and was able to take them in. Something to think about. Many barns, including a massive auction barn in North Carolina with 100 stalls, posted on Facebook offering temporary accomodations free of charge. But you had to have the normal health paperwork that would be required for shows and boarding barns.

I get where you’re coming from and commend you on being proactive about your mare’s health. I would go with the bare minimum to get the health certificates required for traveling. You just never know and it’s stressful as heck to be in a position like I was with my gelding with EPM.

[JB]

@Toblersmom

I’m still waiting for somebody to show me a statute of any place where rabies vaccination is legally mandated for species other than dogs, cats, and ferrets (and cats and ferrets are really pretty recent additions to the requirements most places where they are required, which is far from universal). Maybe it’s out there someplace, but I’ve never seen one.

There is no state requirement anywhere in the US that horses be vaccinated against rabies. They are considered livestock. A county level may have a requirement, and of course public facilities may have requirements. Many states to have a requirement that a horse be up to date if they are coming into the state, but once there, there’s no requirement.

If they are vaccinated, the vaccine typically has to have been given by a veterinarian, or it does not “count” and the horse will be treated as unvaccinated if circumstances come to that, but that’s different than requiring horses to be vaccinated.

No state legally recognizes a horse as vaccinated if it wasn’t done, and on record, by a vet. So while some states do allow rabies vacs to be shipped in to a non-vet, the horse is technically unvaccinated in the eyes of the law.

All this is different in, as stated, Ontario, but even then it’s somewhat similar. All those homebody horses at private facilities who never go anywhere and are only taken care of by owners or facility owners still don’t have to be vaccinated, and would not be legally recognized as vaccinated if not done by a vet.

@BruBoy the core vaccines are still as mentioned - rabies, EEE, WEE, WNV, and tetanus. Those should be non-negotiable, even if incidents are low. These are diseases which come to the horse, and are either costly to treat, or (nearly) always fatal. I would say if you’re really looking to minimize vaccinations, of those, WNV is the one that could be skipped. Or, do it a month apart from the others. Rabies, then 2-4 weeks later EEE/WEE/tetanus, 2-4 weeks later WNV, as an example.

Keep in mind that preemptive use of NSAIDs may reduce the immune response to vaccinations

Titers are not a reliable indicator of actual immunity, because they are only looking at 1 part of the immune system.

And for sure, try a different brand. The adjuvants are often the difference between no reaction, and a bad one.

[Simkie]

@wildlifer

Flu/rhino, well I watched my favorite school horse die of the neuro strain in college, so I’m not risking that. It can also be carried on humans coming from other barns. My vet does those separately, he doesn’t recommend that “all in one” shots as they are less likely to have current variations of flu strains than separate, dedicated vaccines.

The vaccine does not protect against the neuro variant. There’s some compelling evidence that frequently vaccinating actually increases the risk of contacting the neuro form.

[Mulligan314]

We have a bunch of retirees on our property and have always vaccinated VEWT WN and Rabies. Last year, due to one of our geldings being diagnosed with Cushings, we delayed the administration of his normal VEWT/WN booster because he had reacted adversely to his Cushings treatment…and he got West Nile…If that wasn’t enough, while trying to treat and save him(which we did not after nearly 4 weeks of treatment), 4 of the other 6 came down with what we, and our vet, assume was flu. None of these horses had been off the property in over 10 years, and no new horses had been introduced to the herd in over 15 years.

We had one when the vaccine was just released(back in the early 2000s) that contracted West Nile and our vet at the time said the only reason he survived was probably due to the fact that we had gotten 2 rounds of the vaccine on board.

Needless to say, we are adding rhino/flu back into our regiment. We hadn’t given it because they have no contact with any other horses, but we are thinking that due to the amount of rain we have received(last year and this year), it’s being carried to our property from others in the area. We do not vaccinate for Strep anymore because many of our horse react to it.

If you live in an area that is prone to these viruses, it is playing with fire to not give your horses some sort of protection. Cutting out the vaccines for things that are typically only contracted by direct contact with other horses is one thing(strangles), but cutting out the ones that are transmitted by vectors out of your control seems a little…careless? That seems harsh to say…but seeing one die of West Nile is not fun. Just sayin.

[trubandloki]

OP, I think you simply need to discuss this whole situation with your vet, a vet I assume you trust.

I own a mare that had a severe enough reaction to being vaccinated (laminitis) that we no longer vaccinate her after trying different options and pre-treating, etc. This was decided by my vet, not me (though I agree).
Of course my vet would rather know she is protected and vaccinated but we had to weigh our options and this is what they have decided.

I still vaccinate the other horses on the property.

I will add that when I brought my horses home my vet is who suggested to me that we could change my vaccine regimen some. I am thankful to use a vet practice that I trust and who wants what is best for my animals with out doing vaccines just because.

[Simkie]

I totally agree with you, trub, but if the OP’s vet has never suggested trying different brands or pretreating with a NSAID, she might be better off working through this with a different vet that’s more versed in dealing with vaccine reactions…

[JB]

@Simkie

The vaccine does not protect against the neuro variant. There’s some compelling evidence that frequently vaccinating actually increases the risk of contacting the neuro form.

Wow, I hadn’t heard that. I know there is supposed to be an advantage to vaccinating so as to decrease the risk of shedding (different from risk of contracting), which helps lessen spreads and subsequent mutations. I hadn’t heard of this.

@Mulligan314

We have a bunch of retirees on our property and have always vaccinated VEWT WN and Rabies.

I’m curious - do you live in deep south Texas? It’s just so rare to see anyone vaccinating against VEE

We had one when the vaccine was just released(back in the early 2000s) that contracted West Nile and our vet at the time said the only reason he survived was probably due to the fact that we had gotten 2 rounds of the vaccine on board.

Exactly - none of these enceph vaccines are 100% effective. No vaccine is, some are more or less effective than others. That’s because the immune system is just so complicated. BUT, vaccinating does play an important role in how severe the disease is if/when it’s contracted, and that can be the difference between minor or major treatment, and even life and death.

Needless to say, we are adding rhino/flu back into our regiment. We hadn’t given it because they have no contact with any other horses, but we are thinking that due to the amount of rain we have received(last year and this year), it’s being carried to our property from others in the area. We do not vaccinate for Strep anymore because many of our horse react to it.

I don’t think flu/rhino work that way - ?

As for talking to the vet for the OP - I agree that should be the first step. But I also agree with Simkie that many vets aren’t up to speed on how to manage reactions like the OP’s horse has had. They don’t think, for whatever reason, that different brands are, well, different. They might think site reactions are normal. They might not understand that splitting things up and not smacking the horse with 6 vaccines on the same day, let alone the same location, might be a good idea.

[Chief2]

The issue we had down here (CT) this year was that the vets had to change over to the Merial rabies vaccine because the replacement vaccine they had been using for the past 5 or 6 years was deemed ineffective by the FDA. The Merial version has caused colic and swellings in some of the horses vaccinated with it who were not buted the night before the vaccination was given. The vet’s advice for now was to bute the night before vaccinating to hold down the reactions. Having once been badly burned by the old IM Strangles vaccine and ending up with a sick as a dog horse, I normally bute 1 gm the night before, the morning of and that night again, and did so this year for the Merial rabies vaccine after seeing one of the horses in our barn colic on it. My horse sailed right through it. If the Merial was used on your horse (see your records), that could be what was at play in the earlier episodes, or something contained in the adjuvant.

I would suggest you ask your vet for rec’s and go with them. I board in a show facility with folks who also go on horse camping trail rides (using sheds and pastures preciously used by other campers). I vaccinate using the 5 way E/W/T Flu/Rhino, Rabies, WNV, Potomac (because we are in close proximity to wetlands) and Strangles IN. Most of the boarders do not give the Strangles vaccine, but my trust level is really low. Too much outside exposure going on.

Good luck with your horse!

[jonem004]

I would be even MORE careful around the trail riding set than going to horse shows. There’s nothing wrong with back yard casual horsemanship, but I bet they aren’t requiring vacc records and I’d be surprised if they require a coggins. Start loosing that herd immunity and wouldn’t chance it.

I would consider this a decision between her vaccination reaction and being able to participate in this trail riding group. Sounds fun! But I understand your hesitation to dose your horse with something that makes her sick.

[Mulligan314]

@JB

I’m curious - do you live in deep south Texas? It’s just so rare to see anyone vaccinating against VEE

Exactly - none of these enceph vaccines are 100% effective. No vaccine is, some are more or less effective than others. That’s because the immune system is just so complicated. BUT, vaccinating does play an important role in how severe the disease is if/when it’s contracted, and that can be the difference between minor or major treatment, and even life and death.

I don’t think flu/rhino work that way - ?

We do live in Texas. Not Deep South, but we still vaccinate with the V because we do…I understand it isn’t as prevalent up where we are, but with the increased movement of horses due to ‘kill pen rescues’ you never know where horses are coming from and going to anymore, not we did anyways…but anywho…I guess really it’s because we always have. The new one we just brought only has the EWT/WN on board, but he will be boostered with the V when he is due for the rest of the boosters because, again, that’s what we have.

We also didn’t think flu worked that way, and we were at a loss as to how it got onto the property, and so was our vet…Come to find out, the virus can be active up to 18 days in canal type water…We live in the middle of a hill that gets a ton of runoff from other properties, some of which have horses on them. So, it isn’t a far fetched thought. Odd, yes, but not impossible, so we found out. Once one got it, they spread it to the rest of the herd very quickly. It was a musical month with all the honking coughs. One of the older geldings got pneumonia as well. We are adding rhino in because we are traveling with one of them now and want everyone else protected from stuff he/we may come in contact with and possibly bring back to the property.

[JB]

Well that’s a bit scary!

[sascha]

@Toblersmom

Interesting. Very recent, I notice, not even a year on the books so I’m not too out of the loop. It also doesn’t cover ALL horses, just situations where the horse is in contact with the general public. “Examples of settings that fit into this category include petting zoos; corporate birthday party, and other “animal experience” events; and interactive animal exhibits where members of the public are intended to handle or pet the animals. Therapy animals, service animals and riding school horses would also fall under the scope of the immunization requirements.” If you are keeping your own horse on your own property, or in a situation like a show barn with restricted access both at home and away, you get to decide if you want to take the double-risk (risk 1–horse might get rabies, risk 2–in theory if the government finds out you let your Auntie Edna go out back and pet your horse they could fine you).

Yes, it is recent and unfortunately not fully encompassing of all livestock and horses, but it is in fact what you said didn’t exist. lol

It’s very soft considering that this province has a little rabies problem. We vaccinate our wildlife by bait dropping from planes in the worst areas, yet, not all domestic animals are required to be current on vaccinations. No way in hell would I consider not vaccinating one of my animals for rabies. I might be able to count on only one hand the number of people I personally know who have been exposed, and use most of the other hand for domestic animals I know of, but that’s still too many to risk it.

FWIW, for the OP, and I think I posted this in another vax thread - Madam “I am allergic to life itself” has received Vetera 6-way for 6 years now and hasn’t bothered to react aside from a small pimple like swelling at the injection site, which she also gets at her rabies injection site. Pimple swelling lasts roughly 24 hours. I think it’s definitely worth going through other threads to see if there are more commonalities to reactions/no reactions/minimal reactions based on brand. I’d lose my ever lovin’ mind if a vet ever came bearing Fort Dodge with which to vaccinate her allergic self.

[Simkie]

@sascha

I’d lose my ever lovin’ mind if a vet ever came bearing Fort Dodge with which to vaccinate her allergic self.

Good to note that vaccines aren’t being sold under the Fort Dodge brand anymore. Watch out for Zoetis now!! :yes:

[candyappy]

@BruBoy

Simkie, my mare reacted to the 5-way vaccination which I believe is EEE, WEE, Tetanus, Influenza and Rhino. I would cold hose her and give her a bronchodilator with the Aerohippus and she was always fine after. When we broke the vaccinations up between two sessions, unfortunately, I don’t recall how we broke the vaccinations up and will have to ask our vet.

Thanks for the advice. Strangles for sure we are not going to do this year. Flu and Rhino, sadly, I just blindly vaccinated against because that is what we were told to do but now I want to do what makes sense for the horse’s health.

Triple E and Tetanus are a must. You can get it in that combo shot .

[kande04]

@lorilu

I vaccinate because I want my horses to be protected from preventable diseases. Period. How would you feel if you chose not to vaccinate and your horse contracted WN?

How would you feel if you vaccinated for wnv, it caused a serious rxn, and then he got it, anyway? Last time I read up on it I found that the wnv vaccine is only partially effective, even when given twice a year, which would make me seriously reconsider giving it if I had any horses who reacted.

If you ask a vet of course they’re going to recommend that you give your horses everything, because that’s the most prudent advice. After all, how are they going to feel if they tell you to skip certain vacs because the risk is so low, and then your horse gets one of them and you end up with huge vet bills and a seriously damaged horse?

If friends ask me what they should give for vax I tell them that’s entirely up to them, and their vet, but I give mine xyz.

[sascha]

@Simkie

Good to note that vaccines aren’t being sold under the Fort Dodge brand anymore. Watch out for Zoetis now!! :yes:

Indeed! I thought of that after I posted.

[JB]

@kande04

How would you feel if you vaccinated for wnv, it caused a serious rxn, and then he got it, anyway?

Considering the vaccinated status may be what keeps him alive, not bad at all. We also don’t know (at least I didn’t see) where exactly the OP is. Ontario doesn’t seem to have much of an issue with WNV at all, but Montreal certainly has a significant enough risk.

Last time I read up on it I found that the wnv vaccine is only partially effective, even when given twice a year, which would make me seriously reconsider giving it if I had any horses who reacted.

Considering NO vaccine is 100% effective, including EEE and WEE, but being vaccinated is proven in many situations to lessen the severity of the disease, it’s still worth giving. And, you have to take into account the severity of the reaction. There are absolutely situations where a horse reacts so badly that the risk of the vaccine is higher than contracting the disease. But the only wan to know that is to give that vaccine all on its own, not with any other vaccine.

If you ask a vet of course they’re going to recommend that you give your horses everything, because that’s the most prudent advice. After all, how are they going to feel if they tell you to skip certain vacs because the risk is so low, and then your horse gets one of them and you end up with huge vet bills and a seriously damaged horse?

The risk of PHF here is really low and my vet never recommends it. GOOD vets will help you weigh the risks and benefits of vaccinating vs cost and/or reaction. No good vet will tell you to vaccinate for everything just because you can.

https://www.canada.ca/en/public-heal…toring.html#pr

[wildlifer]

@Simkie

The vaccine does not protect against the neuro variant. There’s some compelling evidence that frequently vaccinating actually increases the risk of contacting the neuro form.

No, there is no vaccine labeled for the neuro type, but I don’t want the other forms either, which can turn neurological. There are multiple genetic variants of EHV-1 and vaccination can help reduce shedding & subsequent transmission. As per the AAEP:
“Repeated vaccination appears to reduce the frequency and severity of [respiratory] disease and limits the occurrence of abortion storms.”

There are no controlled studies at present which have established any link to risk of developing EHM (neuro variants).

[trubandloki]

@JB

GOOD vets will help you weigh the risks and benefits of vaccinating vs cost and/or reaction. No good vet will tell you to vaccinate for everything just because you can.

Yes! This is what I was trying to say.