Very hypothetical question...is this mare broodmare potential?

[talkofthetown]

Just curious what the general consensus would be…this is extremely hypothetical. Just throwing ideas around, dont want to get into the whole back story just yet. I originally didn’t think she was breeding-worthy but a few people have thought otherwise. Figured I wouldn’t know for sure unless I ask!

Pedigree:
http://www.pedigreequery.com/bobs+prima+donna

Pros:
She is very sweet. Will leave her equine friends to be near humans.
Built pretty nicely.
Tries really hard to please.

Cons:
Hasn’t done much of anything, no performance record to speak of.
Mild clubbed foot in front.
Is most likely not rideable (pending a few more options that I am exploring/ruling out before saying that for sure).

Pic:
Http://s114.photobucket.com/user/bronnybear/media/Mobile%20Uploads/20151109_132350.jpg.html

[ThirdCharm]

In the pic she appears straight and high behind, calf kneed especially on the RF, and a bit spindly in the cannons.

Pedigree is not bad but not rare by any means.

Is she an awesome mover? Why is she not rideable?

Ideally a broodmare prospect is sound of mind and body, has a good show record, excellent conformation, pedigree, movement, and jump (if being bred for jumping of course). If any area is lacking, the other aspects become even more important. I would be hesitant to use a mare lacking in more than one area.

Jennifer

[Daventry]

Agree with ThirdCharm. The mare is not well put together (won’t bother listing her other flaws). Combined with a club foot in front, it would be a huge no for me.

No foot, no horse. I would not want to take the chance of passing on any of her conformation faults to her offspring. There are too many other nice, proven broodmares out there for very little money due to the current economy.

[talkofthetown]

Sorry, not the best photo! Ok, thanks for confirming what I suspected. :yes:

[talkofthetown]

Sorry, not the best photo! Ok, thanks for confirming what I suspected. :yes:

[Texarkana]

You’ve shared your mare before and I’ve commented on her “unusual” pedigree. But I just think she’s so neat. You may be one of the few people on the planet who have the opportunity to breed a Giant’s Causeway daughter for sport. If you pull up his auction results, you can count on your fingers the number of his daughters who sold for “sport horse prices” in the US. And he has carved out a pretty good reputation for himself in sport in addition to his obvious success siring race horses. Her whole pedigree is just nice for sport, IMO. :yes:

With that said, unless that club foot is a result of an injury, club feet are highly heritable. And in that picture, she has some leg conformation that would give me pause (maybe it’s just the picture).

Otherwise, she has a lovely shoulder and I personally like her overall impression.

I think you’ll find most people here will be quick to say “don’t breed,” especially on a mare who is not “perfect.” And with good reason-- there are tons of horses in this world already and breeding is NOT for the faint of heart. But at the end of the day, it’s your mare and your decision. I would never tell anyone “don’t breed that mare,” especially when I’m over here breeding my own. You obviously know her better than any of us.

[SPRINGBORO]

The distaff is interesting, isn’t it? She’s 1/2 to a very minor stakes placed filly, and her dam’s 1/2 sister is stakes placed. But other than that, not a known racing family. Seems to have French origins, and I do see a hurdler way back in the 3rd dam. As with any European pedigree, I would assume she is best on grass. And having a Giant’s Causeway is generally cause for celebration. My guess is that her conformation is the worst thing against her.

[SPRINGBORO]

and I love this mare crossed with Sligo Bay. RF to Lalun and Ballade, a proven cross (G1 Stallion Match had over 9 20+ scores), and he improves his mares. He’s in Canada and $7500, but…

[talkofthetown]

Texarkana, yes I’ve posted about her a few times. Honestly the only reason breeding popped into my mind was the Giant’s Causeway conversation.

I’m normally quick to say “don’t breed” as well, but a few different people suggested it because of her pedigree so I was curious what others thought. I’m looking through the pictures that I have of her and I don’t have any great conformation shots.

Someone asked why she’s not rideable. Short answer is, I don’t know yet. Longer answer is, it could be physical or it could be training. She is saying “no” for some reason. I have a plan, I have vets and trainers in mind, but we’re also trying to buy a house so meanwhile Piper gets to hang out and not do anything for a few months. When things settle down I can focus more money and energy into solving her mystery.

[SPRINGBORO]

ok sport horse folks, do you recognize any of these French stallions? Javelot, Jaldi, Jabot II, Deep Sea, Jargon? Valdrague?

[talkofthetown]

Didn’t have time to post the whole entire novel last night, but just so I’m being upfront…

I am not 100% sure that I want to keep this mare. If I’m being honest with myself, I’ve become a little scared of even attempting to ride her. So we play around on the ground and she gets scritches and treats and she’s fine with that. Over the next few months, I’m going to have more extensive vet work and trainer assessments done. But even if her riding challenges have a solution, I feel like I’ve almost become soured on her. It’s not enjoyable at this point, it’s out of obligation more than anything.

Above all, I want to do right by her. If she can turn into a solid citizen and nice riding horse, fantastic. But if she can’t, then the odds of finding a nice companion home for her are slim. I’m not just going to dump her off, I’m not in a rush, I could keep her until a good situation presents itself. However, if someone thinks that she could throw some nice sport horse babies, then that would ease my mind a bit in terms of her being a productive member of society. So I wanted to find out if she could potentially be marketed as a broodmare.

FWIW, she’s had one foal but I can’t seem to figure out how to search her progeny records. I don’t know anything about the offspring or who the sire was.

[beowulf]

Her foal:
http://www.pedigreequery.com/miserys+joke

You can see a horse’s progeny by, when viewing that horse’s page, moving your mouse to the yellow ribbon up top that says ‘REPORTS, MAINTENANCE, SUBSCRIPTIONS, HELP’ – mouseover ‘REPORTS’ and 2 down is progeny.

I would get a better picture of her, standing straight.

I don’t agree that she is too straight and high behind. She has a fair amount of angulation in her femur and there is plenty of angle from the stifle to hock.

I am not sure I would breed a calf-kneed horse, if that is what she is. My general rule is only one conformation flaw if that and they must be flawless in every other way (movement, personality, trainability, etc).

That being said, given your most recent post, I would not breed her. If you are not in love with the mare, you won’t be in love with the foal.

[Texarkana]

Since I’ve done all this before… here’s her daughter:

http://www.equibase.com/profiles/Results.cfm?type=Horse&refno=9221522&registry=T

Her name makes chuckle… there’s gotta be a story behind that. I have my own suspicions based off of what you’ve said about her dam’s personality.

While she’s not a race horse for the record books, she has been a productive member of society. She’s been earning her keep, albeit at a very low level. She has a lifetime record of 3-5-1 in 21 starts, winning her 3rd race just last week at Hazel Park.

I don’t want to get your hopes up and make you think your mare has incredible value as a broodmare… she doesn’t. However, if it comes down to needing a home for her, I think you could find someone interested in her for breeding. Her conformation may or may not scare off a lot of folks, especially sport horse folks. But at the end of the day, there’s no denying her pedigree has intriguing attributes.

[talkofthetown]

Thank you both for the links! I’ll try and get some better photos in the next couple of days.

Beowolf, I’m not really considering breeding her myself. While I would love a little fluffy baby to snuggle, :lol: I’m not interested in that right now. I was just hoping to put some feelers out and she if she could earn her keep for someone as a broodmare.

[rebecca_yount]

Why on earth would anyone breed a mare with a club foot? I don’t understand why people are even entertaining that possibility, especially given her conformation. Nice TB broodmares are a dime a dozen–and this one seems to have other issues besides her conformation challenges.

[Cumano]

[QUOTE=rebecca yount;8747117]
Why on earth would anyone breed a mare with a club foot? I don’t understand why people are even entertaining that possibility, especially given her conformation. Nice TB broodmares are a dime a dozen–and this one seems to have other issues besides her conformation challenges.[/QUOTE]

I do not think there is any reason to breed this mare. However, mild cases of club foot, especialy if unilateral, are not necessarily genetic or hereditary. Most of the time club foots may result from growth issues that can be prevented or corrected early by good management. You have to take it into account, but in my mind, a mild case of club foot is not an automatique reason not to breed an otherwise excellent broodmare.

[NancyM]

The back at the knee is the only thing that I don’t like that I can see in her picture. Her shoulder is fantastic and I like the angles in her hind end, at least as much of this as can be seen in a picture. Seeing her in person is far more important, how she moves etc. Have you free jumped her at all? That could be instructive in making a decision about what you want to do with her. The development of a club foot, especially if only classed as “minor” CAN be environmentally sourced, may not hereditary. The back at the knee MAY also be worse than it has to be, if as a foal she was allowed too much activity on weak legs soon after foaling, tiring the ligaments holding the joint together with the conformation of the joint rather than tightening them. The knees would be the major risk in using her as breeding stock, IMO. If her one and only foal is racing with some minor success and repetition, perhaps the knees did not come through in the previous issue. Might be worth going and taking a look at that horse the next time it is entered, if that is possible… see what the knees look like with that one.

There is always risk when breeding horses. Those who think they KNOW what will happen, what the foal will look like, haven’t been breeding horses for long. There are so many factors that can influence the outcome, genetics that come through from far back, dormant for generations, and presto, show up. Either you are accepting risk, or not. If not, then it is unlikely that ANY mare can be passed as “good breeding stock”. Any mare who is bred for any specific purpose must have the belief of the breeder that she has attributes that they hope will come through in her offspring. If you don’t have that belief in her yourself, don’t breed her. But someone else might, and may not be wrong.

[Texarkana]

[QUOTE=rebecca yount;8747117]
Nice TB broodmares are a dime a dozen–and this one seems to have other issues besides her conformation challenges.[/QUOTE]

While I agree there is no shortage of TB mares in this country, Giant’s Causeway mares are most definitely not a dime a dozen.

Sure, you can find yourself a gelding by him. You could even find a stallion prospect by him that flunked out of racing. Or you could breed to one of his many sons at stud. But the majority of mares by him are just not available to the general public. They have too much residual value as race breeding stock.

I hope the OP won’t mind me resurrecting this old thread to kind of give some further background on this mare’s unique pedigree and why we’re even able to discuss this particular Giant’s Causeway mare. There’s just no sense in typing it out again:

http://www.chronofhorse.com/forum/showthread.php?479528-New-horse-curious-about-pedigree

[talkofthetown]

Don’t mind at all. At this point I guess I should have just resurrected that thread instead of starting a new one. :yes:

[SPRINGBORO]

and for my Florida recommendation ( I see the OP is in FL) I could suggest the Kitten’s Joy son, Csaba. Nice nick, and he seems to have decent conformation. I still like Sligo Bay better, but he’s way up in Canada.